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  • KHD wrote: View Post
    people dismiss PnR defence stats because it's really not an individual defensive play, it's a team defensive play. Much, much more so than a post-up defence play.

    Defending a pick and roll is not done by the C alone.

    Of course this doesn't mean he has nothing to improve on. We didn't say that.

    To my eye, since JV returned from injury he has been quite improved in the PnR defensive system. Last night he was strikingly better in it than Biyombo.
    I know it's not an individual defensive play, I didn't say it was.

    But there's a clearly a problem because our team is getting exposed on PnR plays that JV and Scola are involved in, and they play the majority of the minutes for us at the 4 and 5 spots. 2Pat on the other hand has pretty good numbers on that end.

    It's definitely something that needs to be addressed, not just swept aside and ignored. That's why I've said it's crucial that if we do acquire a PF we get one who's mobile and can defend pick & rolls well (in addition to other things) because for whatever reason the numbers for JV in a pick and roll defensive situation aren't great. Can't see last years, but I don't remember them being too great then either.

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      Drummond is one of the worst post players in the league (averages 0.73 PPP in the post, good for the 29th percentile) who was posting up on one of the best post defenders in the league in JV (averages 0.43 PPP given up in the post, good for 98th percentile), and our guards turned that into wide open threes.
      Is it possible that the guards doubling down is what's helping make it more difficult for guys to score in the post on Jonas? Is that defensive strategy actually helping our post defense?

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      • JWash wrote: View Post
        I know it's not an individual defensive play, I didn't say it was.

        But there's a clearly a problem because our team is getting exposed on PnR plays that JV and Scola are involved in, and they play the majority of the minutes for us at the 4 and 5 spots. 2Pat on the other hand has pretty good numbers on that end.

        It's definitely something that needs to be addressed, not just swept aside and ignored. That's why I've said it's crucial that if we do acquire a PF we get one who's mobile and can defend pick & rolls well (in addition to other things) because for whatever reason the numbers for JV in a pick and roll defensive situation aren't great. Can't see last years, but I don't remember them being too great then either.
        Well, here i'll agree with you. Scola+JV is a terrible fit. As discussed ad nauseum we already have a PF who should be a better fit, but that's not the point.

        Last year's numbers are bad too but we're playing a very different scheme, i don't know how valuable the comparison is.

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        • JWash wrote: View Post
          Is it possible that the guards doubling down is what's helping make it more difficult for guys to score in the post on Jonas? Is that defensive strategy actually helping our post defense?
          I doubt it, since that usually causes the ball to move out of the post and thus will not result in something getting registered in Jonas' post defence stats. Guys forcing up shots through doubles isn't exactly super common.

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          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            I think it was brought up at a time a bit back though that even BB measures below average on our team, and when all the bigs start to look bad, including the guy who's specifically supposed to be better at it, the problems are definitely team-related. We miss a lot of rotations on the roll man. I've seen more than a few times where BB does and he's visibly screaming or angry at the rest of the team for not having his back...in the past, I've seen JV get screamed at (by a player) for not being able to recover in the same type of situation. BB is in the right there though, the big should be the one who's pissed, not blamed.

            So JV may not be good in the p'n'r, but most bigs aren't, and if all your bigs are measuring out poorly, there's clearly a deeper problem.
            Yeah, BB is long, quick, known as a good defender, basically an ideal player for defending the pick and roll, and he ranks in the 44th percentile defensively, giving up almost a PPP. Patterson, another good defender in help situations, is in the 57th percentile, barely above average. These stats are not describing these players.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • JWash wrote: View Post
              Is it possible that the guards doubling down is what's helping make it more difficult for guys to score in the post on Jonas? Is that defensive strategy actually helping our post defense?
              Possible? Sure. Likely, based on my viewing? Not remotely. They don't do it that often. When they do, it tends to end in disaster.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • If their bad in two different schemes doesn't that just mean the player is just a poor PnR defender? Nothing wrong with that Shaq was also a notoriously bad PnR defender.
                Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Tue Feb 9th, 2016, 01:55 PM.
                @Chr1st1anL

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                • JWash wrote: View Post
                  I like JV a lot, but why are people just dismissing the roll man stats? It's clearly a problem. He gives up the 3rd most PPP on Pick & Rolls among players with at least 30 defensive possessions against the roll man. Scola is 4th.

                  Post defense is great though, 0.43 PPP against in the post on 65 post up possessions. Take the good with the bad and evaluate both, I feel like people never want to point out anything for JV to improve or work on, he's not a perfect player.
                  There are a lot of problems with those roll man stats. They rate David Lee as a better roll man defender than Tristan Thompson, Anthony Davis, or Serge Ibaka, for one thing (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/rol...GE*30&sort=PPP). That's the discussion that is being had. I don't think anyone was "just dismissing the roll man stats."

                  But I guess if we want to improve our p'n'r defense we should trade Biyombo for David Lee. Either that or the discussion has to move beyond these stats, because they're problematic.
                  "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                  • S.R. wrote: View Post
                    There are a lot of problems with those roll man stats. They rate David Lee as a better roll man defender than Tristan Thompson, Anthony Davis, or Serge Ibaka, for one thing (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/rol...GE*30&sort=PPP). That's the discussion that is being had. I don't think anyone was "just dismissing the roll man stats."

                    But I guess if we want to improve our p'n'r defense we should trade Biyombo for David Lee. Either that or the discussion has to move beyond these stats, because they're problematic.
                    Well it's fundamentally a fishy stat. How do they judge who's responsible for the roll man? The big often has to help off his man at the start of a p'n'r anyway, and then any result where the roller gets the ball likely means a team failure. If the big is responsible for that man in this stat because it was his man when the play started...that's kind of fucked. If it's only at the end that's also kind of fucked because it'll be plays where no one helped but the big tried to recover anyway, so they'll usually not be in a great position to contest.

                    By the way, to frame this in a way that might help Raps fans here...Amir ranks 10th worst in the stat. Amir who was frequently our best defensive player especially in the p'n'r. He's ranking worse than Kevin Love, Nikola Mirotic, and Spencer Hawes, those fleet footed defensive monsters.

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                    • JWash wrote: View Post
                      Is it possible that the guards doubling down is what's helping make it more difficult for guys to score in the post on Jonas? Is that defensive strategy actually helping our post defense?
                      I think the opposite is true, as it relates to the other thread about opponent's 3pt shooting.

                      Last night there were 2 plays within a relatively short timespan, where DeRozan needlessly doubled (and I use the term loosely, because he was basically in proximity without actually doing anything productive) Drummond, as he was posting-up JV just inside the foul line. On one possession, Drummond threw the ball over DeRozan's head for a wide open 3pt shot. On the other possession, JV did a fantastic job of forcing a badly missed shot, but DeRozan got called for a foul for uselessly slapping Drummond's arm (he made 1/2 free throws).

                      I think JV isn't given enough credit defensively, whether by fans, teammates or even his coach.
                      Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Feb 9th, 2016, 02:11 PM.

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                      • And this is not to say there's no discussion to be had about JV's (or the Raptors') p'n'r defense, just that the meat should probably come from somewhere else....
                        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                        • Raps are one of the worst P&R defenses in the league with 1.08 PPP given up to the roll man as a team. It's an issue that appears to primarily stem from Jonas and Scola.

                          They have 1.23 and 1.21 PPP allowed against the roll man. 2Pat and Biyombo are at 0.89 and 0.94 respectively, James Johnson at 0.60 but he's only defended 10 possessions (Jonas - 39, 2pat - 46, Scola - 42, BB - 32, however per game Jonas defends the most of these at slightly over 1 per game).

                          For reference, the PPP for 2Pat is as good as the best team PPP in the league, and Biyombo's is as good as the 2nd best.

                          Yes I know it's not an individual stat, but 2Pat, Biyombo, Scola and JV largely play with the same combinations of players just at different times. So it's a valid question to ask why we're giving up a very significant 0.3 PPP more to the roll man when JV and Scola are involved as opposed to 2Pat and Bismack and an average of almost 57% shooting from the field.


                          I'm not even saying that this is a problem that JV necessarily needs to solve himself. What I'm suggesting is that he probably needs to be paired with a 4-man who does excel, have high mobility and post solid numbers in these situations, it's about improving the team not ragging on JV. I've got no interest in ragging on JV, he's my joint favourite player on the squad along with DD.

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                          • JWash wrote: View Post
                            Raps are one of the worst P&R defenses in the league with 1.08 PPP given up to the roll man as a team. It's an issue that appears to primarily stem from Jonas and Scola.

                            They have 1.23 and 1.21 PPP allowed against the roll man. 2Pat and Biyombo are at 0.89 and 0.94 respectively, James Johnson at 0.60 but he's only defended 10 possessions (Jonas - 39, 2pat - 46, Scola - 42, BB - 32, however per game Jonas defends the most of these at slightly over 1 per game).

                            For reference, the PPP for 2Pat is as good as the best team PPP in the league, and Biyombo's is as good as the 2nd best.

                            Yes I know it's not an individual stat, but 2Pat, Biyombo, Scola and JV largely play with the same combinations of players just at different times. So it's a valid question to ask why we're giving up a very significant 0.3 PPP more to the roll man when JV and Scola are involved as opposed to 2Pat and Bismack and an average of almost 57% shooting from the field.


                            I'm not even saying that this is a problem that JV necessarily needs to solve himself. What I'm suggesting is that he probably needs to be paired with a 4-man who does excel, have high mobility and post solid numbers in these situations, it's about improving the team not ragging on JV. I've got no interest in ragging on JV, he's my joint favourite player on the squad along with DD.
                            JV/Scola primarily play with the starters though, who are weaker defensively as a group. Not saying that's entirely the cause, but it might be a factor.

                            PPat and Bismack might be benefitting a lot here from playing their minutes with Joseph/Ross, who both grade out as top tier perimeter defenders by most statistics.
                            twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                            • JWash wrote: View Post
                              Raps are one of the worst P&R defenses in the league with 1.08 PPP given up to the roll man as a team. It's an issue that appears to primarily stem from Jonas and Scola.

                              They have 1.23 and 1.21 PPP allowed against the roll man. 2Pat and Biyombo are at 0.89 and 0.94 respectively, James Johnson at 0.60 but he's only defended 10 possessions (Jonas - 39, 2pat - 46, Scola - 42, BB - 32, however per game Jonas defends the most of these at slightly over 1 per game).

                              For reference, the PPP for 2Pat is as good as the best team PPP in the league, and Biyombo's is as good as the 2nd best.

                              Yes I know it's not an individual stat, but 2Pat, Biyombo, Scola and JV largely play with the same combinations of players just at different times. So it's a valid question to ask why we're giving up a very significant 0.3 PPP more to the roll man when JV and Scola are involved as opposed to 2Pat and Bismack and an average of almost 57% shooting from the field.


                              I'm not even saying that this is a problem that JV necessarily needs to solve himself. What I'm suggesting is that he probably needs to be paired with a 4-man who does excel, have high mobility and post solid numbers in these situations, it's about improving the team not ragging on JV. I've got no interest in ragging on JV, he's my joint favourite player on the squad along with DD.
                              is this really true? 2pat and Bismack play with Joseph and Ross a lot more than JV and Scola do, do they not?

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                              • Barolt wrote: View Post
                                JV/Scola primarily play with the starters though, who are weaker defensively as a group. Not saying that's entirely the cause, but it might be a factor.

                                PPat and Bismack might be benefitting a lot here from playing their minutes with Joseph/Ross, who both grade out as top tier perimeter defenders by most statistics.
                                I don't really buy that explanation, because even when you trade Lowry for DeRozan in that Lowry+Bench unit it's not the defense like the defense gets bad (it's still at 91.4 dRTG which would be near the top of the league) it's the offense that takes a hit.

                                And if you look at these two lineups:

                                DeRozan,DeMar - Joseph,Cory - Lowry,Kyle - Patterson,Patrick - Valanciunas,Jonas
                                DeRozan,DeMar - Lowry,Kyle - Patterson,Patrick - Ross,Terrence - Valanciunas,Jonas

                                They're amazing offensively, but on defense just a little bit better than normal.

                                You can't explain the whole NBA with lineup stats.

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