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  • This team the way it is set up now and with the extensions that MU gave to JV and Ross, really rely on the growth of JV and Ross.
    We can not expect more from DD and Lowry.
    They are operating at a high level as it is and if this team wants to have any chance of advancing further from last year and in the positive direction, then we need JV and Ross to set it up.

    That being said, the performance of JV has been very questionable.

    Maybe he will get traded before the end of season !!!!

    Comment


    • McRealistic wrote: View Post
      This team the way it is set up now and with the extensions that MU gave to JV and Ross, really rely on the growth of JV and Ross.
      We can not expect more from DD and Lowry.
      They are operating at a high level as it is and if this team wants to have any chance of advancing further from last year and in the positive direction, then we need JV and Ross to set it up.

      That being said, the performance of JV has been very questionable.

      Maybe he will get traded before the end of season !!!!
      Personally I really do think one of them will be traded before the end of this year.

      The only way this team can really upgrade is by using either and/or both in a trade package and the reality is Lowry only has a few more years in his tank and MLSE just invested a huge amount of money into DeRozan who is just entering his prime. The obvious time to act is now. I think the only thing that has held back Masai is flat out there just aren't good enough players available to be traded for. Ross was already being dangled last year for an upgrade at PF and I don't think that will change this year. Not to mention although I'm STRONGLY against trading our 2017s, I just find it very hard to see us keeping both (if any) given the timing of where the franchise is and designating so many roster spots to youth (which MU has acknowledged publicly as being an issue).

      I know we were rumored to be after Milsap in the off season and I could see us pursue it again if ATL is showing some (likely imo) decline and with FVV's signing, Powell emerging, Pascal being heralded as our future PF, I think we will try something like CoJo + Ross + Patterson or Sullinger + 2017 pick for Milsap. He's the ideal fit and a friend of Carroll's which only furthers the chemistry in the locker room. But of course who knows?! That just to me seems like a fairly likely target and opens up some cap space and roster spots again. Of course if there are some other big names on the market that aren't guards, I fully expect Masai will try to get in. Signing JV + somewhat Ross to cap friendly contracts was just a no lose. If they cant find a trade partner they just keep on with the bs organic growth statements and keep shopping until they find the right deal.

      Comment


      • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
        Personally I really do think one of them will be traded before the end of this year.

        The only way this team can really upgrade is by using either and/or both in a trade package and the reality is Lowry only has a few more years in his tank and MLSE just invested a huge amount of money into DeRozan who is just entering his prime. The obvious time to act is now. I think the only thing that has held back Masai is flat out there just aren't good enough players available to be traded for. Ross was already being dangled last year for an upgrade at PF and I don't think that will change this year. Not to mention although I'm STRONGLY against trading our 2017s, I just find it very hard to see us keeping both (if any) given the timing of where the franchise is and designating so many roster spots to youth (which MU has acknowledged publicly as being an issue).

        I know we were rumored to be after Milsap in the off season and I could see us pursue it again if ATL is showing some (likely imo) decline and with FVV's signing, Powell emerging, Pascal being heralded as our future PF, I think we will try something like CoJo + Ross + Patterson or Sullinger + 2017 pick for Milsap. He's the ideal fit and a friend of Carroll's which only furthers the chemistry in the locker room. But of course who knows?! That just to me seems like a fairly likely target and opens up some cap space and roster spots again. Of course if there are some other big names on the market that aren't guards, I fully expect Masai will try to get in. Signing JV + somewhat Ross to cap friendly contracts was just a no lose. If they cant find a trade partner they just keep on with the bs organic growth statements and keep shopping until they find the right deal.
        I totally agree about a trade. For all the young guys on the roster, I don't think they will produce a star as good as Lowry, so may as well go short term and capitalize on KL/DD primes with a still weak eastern conference. I'd rather see a real good team for a few years than prolonged mediocrity at this point.

        Comment


        • One thing that concerns me a bit for Jonas is that he wasn't in any of our top 3 lineups last year that played over 100 minutes.

          They were:

          1.) CoJo-Kyle-DeMar-2Pat-Biz (+18.3)
          2.) CoJo-Kyle-Ross-2Pat-Biz (+16.4)
          3.) CoJo-DeMar-Ross-2Pat-Biz (+13.7)

          Every other lineup that saw over 100 minutes of floor time had a negative net rating. Now I know this is partly because JV doesn't play as much with 2Pat as he should, but it looks like we are going to run into that same problem again with some combination of Siakam and Sullinger it looks like taking up Scola's role in the starting 5. Which means poor spacing offensively, and likely poor defense with Siakam being young and mistake-prone and Sullinger just being flat out slow for the 4 spot (he's played like 70% of his career minutes at center for a reason).

          This is why it's critical to me that 2Pat starts. His ability to space the floor and also defend 2-3 positions at a high level is invaluable and it's what unlocks the offensive and defensive potency of our top guys. I'd even advocate for starting Ross potentially, because he's actually a knockdown shooter and is able to read and position himself well off DeMar/Lowry drives unlike Carroll.
          Last edited by Lupe; Mon Oct 24th, 2016, 09:56 AM.

          Comment


          • Lupe wrote: View Post
            One thing that concerns me a bit about Jonas is that he wasn't in any of our top 3 lineups last year that played over 100 minutes.

            They were:

            1.) CoJo-Kyle-DeMar-2Pat-Biz (+18.3)
            2.) CoJo-Kyle-Ross-2Pat-Biz (+16.4)
            3.) CoJo-DeMar-Ross-2Pat-Biz (+13.7)

            Every other lineup that saw over 100 minutes of floor time had a negative net rating. Now I know this is partly because JV doesn't play as much with 2Pat as he should, but it looks like we are going to run into that same problem again with some combination of Siakam and Sullinger it looks like taking up Scola's role in the starting 5. Which means poor spacing offensively, and likely poor defense with Siakam being young and mistake-prone and Sullinger just being flat out slow for the 4 spot (he's played like 70% of his career minutes at center for a reason).
            Just to be clear, it is indeed partly because JV didn't play enough with PP. The other part is he played too much with Scola. Siakam starting may well cause issues, at least in the short term. But even with him starting, we should see a lot more JV+PP than last year. And Sullinger was never going to be the same problem Scola was (and with him playing a lot of C, we'd be seeing more JV+PP there as well).
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

            Comment


            • What Dan said.

              Basically every large positive net lineup for the Raps last year had either Kyle or Pat in them, and the best lineups had both. You want to make any player look good, maximize their time with those 2.
              twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

              Comment


              • DanH wrote: View Post
                Just to be clear, it is indeed partly because JV didn't play enough with PP. The other part is he played too much with Scola. Siakam starting may well cause issues, at least in the short term. But even with him starting, we should see a lot more JV+PP than last year. And Sullinger was never going to be the same problem Scola was (and with him playing a lot of C, we'd be seeing more JV+PP there as well).
                We've discussed this before but I don't see why you think that Sullinger starting won't be the same problem as Scola. He also doesn't space the floor and can't guard 4s effectively, in fact he shoots the 3 worse than Scola shot it last year and isn't really much better from the corners, nor does his percentage from 16-23 feet indicate that he would be good from there if he shot more corner 3s (like Scola's did). He presents the exact same issue. Yes he might play more 5, but we're still going to have those slow starts with a poorly spaced lineup with a legitimate defensive liability starting the game every night. Siakam isn't really much different except he hopefully won't play much so 2Pat will get a lot of run, but the slow starts will still be there.

                On top of that in the preseason our first sub wasn't 2Pat for Sullinger to get 2Pat-JV going, it was actually 2Pat for JV with Sullinger sliding to center. While it is good to see Sully playing at the 5 that isn't getting a lot of play time for Jonas with Patterson.

                Comment


                • Lupe wrote: View Post
                  We've discussed this before but I don't see why you think that Sullinger starting won't be the same problem as Scola. He also doesn't space the floor and can't guard 4s effectively, in fact he shoots the 3 worse than Scola shot it last year and isn't really much better from the corners, nor does his percentage from 16-23 feet indicate that he would be good from there if he shot more corner 3s (like Scola's did). He presents the exact same issue. Yes he might play more 5, but we're still going to have those slow starts with a poorly spaced lineup with a legitimate defensive liability starting the game every night. Siakam isn't really much different except he hopefully won't play much so 2Pat will get a lot of run, but the slow starts will still be there.

                  On top of that in the preseason our first sub wasn't 2Pat for Sullinger to get 2Pat-JV going, it was actually 2Pat for JV with Sullinger sliding to center. While it is good to see Sully playing at the 5 that isn't getting a lot of play time for Jonas with Patterson.
                  I basically disagree with all of this. Sullinger played the 4 for about 2/3rds of his minutes last year (based on NC's positional estimates) and still posted a tremendous DRPM and DBPM for the year. He's not the problem at the 4 that Scola was - he's slow, but not nearly that slow, and his rebounding helps make up for that.

                  Sullinger can't shoot the long three but he can absolutely hit from the corners. 16-23 feet is a big sample, but muddied, as those 16-18 foot jumpers tend to be pretty contested compared to looks from 20+ feet out. He shot 50% on 2-point shots from 20-24 feet last year (ie any 20+ foot shot inside the above-the-break three point line). And shot 50% from that range the previous year. And the year before that. Each year is a relatively small sample due to his shot patterns/usage, but over those three years he shot a combined 85/170 from that range (with more than half that sample coming last season). That's exactly 50%. There's every reason to believe he can be a 35-40% corner shooter with his history of hitting 50% of his shots from that distance.

                  Who cares who the first sub was? JV and PP played together for 55 minutes this preseason over 6 games, with each only playing 20 MPG or so. That's 9.2 minutes per 20 minutes played, or about half each of their respective time on the court. Which is exactly what I outlined earlier - the big minutes would have been roughly split in thirds, with Sully spending half his time with JV and with PP, with JV spending half his time with Sully and half with PP, and with PP spending half his time with Sully and half with JV. With BeBe filling in for a few minutes beside each of the PF's. Now with Sully hurt, you expect more minutes for BeBe and minutes for Siakam, but you still expect half of JV and PP's minutes to be played together - it will just be half of a bigger number, as each will have to carry over 30 MPG for sure now that Sully is gone.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

                  Comment


                  • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
                    Personally I really do think one of them will be traded before the end of this year.

                    The only way this team can really upgrade is by using either and/or both in a trade package and the reality is Lowry only has a few more years in his tank and MLSE just invested a huge amount of money into DeRozan who is just entering his prime. The obvious time to act is now. I think the only thing that has held back Masai is flat out there just aren't good enough players available to be traded for. Ross was already being dangled last year for an upgrade at PF and I don't think that will change this year. Not to mention although I'm STRONGLY against trading our 2017s, I just find it very hard to see us keeping both (if any) given the timing of where the franchise is and designating so many roster spots to youth (which MU has acknowledged publicly as being an issue).

                    I know we were rumored to be after Milsap in the off season and I could see us pursue it again if ATL is showing some (likely imo) decline and with FVV's signing, Powell emerging, Pascal being heralded as our future PF, I think we will try something like CoJo + Ross + Patterson or Sullinger + 2017 pick for Milsap. He's the ideal fit and a friend of Carroll's which only furthers the chemistry in the locker room. But of course who knows?! That just to me seems like a fairly likely target and opens up some cap space and roster spots again. Of course if there are some other big names on the market that aren't guards, I fully expect Masai will try to get in. Signing JV + somewhat Ross to cap friendly contracts was just a no lose. If they cant find a trade partner they just keep on with the bs organic growth statements and keep shopping until they find the right deal.
                    Fully agree with that. This team needs to compete within the next 2-3 years and JV and Ross's development is the KEY.

                    Comment


                    • I'm a lot more worried about our 3-point shooting than I am JV.

                      Comment


                      • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                        I'm a lot more worried about our 3-point shooting than I am JV.
                        Yeah, I think he'll be fine. He's been through four (right?) seasons now, he knows what it takes to play 82 games. He'll be fine.

                        Comment


                        • They need him to step up BIG TIME. It's time.
                          Mamba Mentality

                          Comment


                          • At this point, if JV doesn't start getting 30 minutes a game minimum, I'm going on hunger strike.
                            "Stop eating your sushi."
                            "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                            "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                            - Jack Armstrong

                            Comment


                            • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                              At this point, if JV doesn't start getting 30 minutes a game minimum, I'm going on hunger strike.
                              For me, this would have been true even before the Sully injury. At this point, it should be an absolute certainty. The question now should be where in the 30's does JV end up (in the short term anyway)? Could be as high as 33, 34, higher? Depends on how BeBe plays (if healthy) and whether JV can handle it conditioning wise.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

                              Comment


                              • DanH wrote: View Post
                                For me, this would have been true even before the Sully injury. At this point, it should be an absolute certainty. The question now should be where in the 30's does JV end up (in the short term anyway)? Could be as high as 33, 34, higher? Depends on how BeBe plays (if healthy) and whether JV can handle it conditioning wise.
                                8 minutes per quarter, open and close each half. 32 mpg.

                                By my eye, most big guys don't do too well when you leave them in for longer than 8 straight minutes. Casey has a bad habit of doing this to them, though.

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