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  • lewro wrote: View Post
    To me, offensively he is good fit with Kyle and demar but a bad fit for himself with them. He's also a good fit bc he doesn't complain about it.
    Defensively he is a decent fit but we've already seen a better fit imo from a very green rookie in poeltl. Jv and the organization have tried very hard to improve in this area but there's not much more room for improvement. I don't see him gaining a lot more footspeed.
    I think we'd be better served by a Chandler type 5 and a millsap type 4.
    Any team that does not have a center would value jv. Raps valued yak enough with jv already here to still use a top 10 pick on him. The game is changing but any skilled 7ft guy has lots of value bc the pool is small. You "run and hug them".
    Defensively, JV is solid. He has seen some fluctuation in his defence numbers but he is a solid defender and a great rebounder. Could we find a better defender, absolutely but to find a better defender who's equally as capable on offence is pretty much not happening.

    I don't think we've seen anything from Poeltl to say he's a better fit defensively. He could be, but evidence is still pending and he could just as well end up much worse.

    Most teams would be better served if they could trade one guy into two different roles but that's part of the point, finding a "Chandler type" and a "Millsap type" is hard enough separately let alone together. There simply aren't many real options out there that would be better for us. Short of trading JV for Davis or KAT, I'm not sure I see any actual players (not just hypothetical player types) that would make much sense.

    If the plan is to go in on this group, trading Poeltl would make much more sense.

    If the plan is long term, trading Lowry would make more sense than dealing JV.

    JVs offence is underutilized now, but his rebounding is a big part of our success. As Lowry ages, JVs role of offence should grow and we do need that.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • Axel wrote: View Post
      Defensively, JV is solid. He has seen some fluctuation in his defence numbers but he is a solid defender and a great rebounder. Could we find a better defender, absolutely but to find a better defender who's equally as capable on offence is pretty much not happening.

      I don't think we've seen anything from Poeltl to say he's a better fit defensively. He could be, but evidence is still pending and he could just as well end up much worse.

      Most teams would be better served if they could trade one guy into two different roles but that's part of the point, finding a "Chandler type" and a "Millsap type" is hard enough separately let alone together. There simply aren't many real options out there that would be better for us. Short of trading JV for Davis or KAT, I'm not sure I see any actual players (not just hypothetical player types) that would make much sense.

      If the plan is to go in on this group, trading Poeltl would make much more sense.

      If the plan is long term, trading Lowry would make more sense than dealing JV.

      JVs offence is underutilized now, but his rebounding is a big part of our success. As Lowry ages, JVs role of offence should grow and we do need that.
      He is solid and a great rebounder but hes stronger as a low post scorer and we don't use him (2fga last game and many of his fga are put backs). We do use him as a pnr defender on almost every play.
      I do think yak is already better. Much better footspeed and already 3 or 4 blocks in two games that I've never seen jv make in 4 years. Post defense is a different story but yak will get stronger, there is less post offense in the league and you can use a bench guy like Sully in those matchups.
      Lowry's game will age well unless he gets injured. He's a championship piece pg like billups imo.
      I think Lowry is the one that includes jv somewhat. Demar hardly at all.
      I'm a jv fan but as a fan we are not using him. We should but if we don't then it might be better to consider him as a chip. I thought the playoffs and game one would shift his usage but not sure it has or will?

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      • lewro wrote: View Post
        He is solid and a great rebounder but hes stronger as a low post scorer and we don't use him (2fga last game and many of his fga are put backs). We do use him as a pnr defender on almost every play.
        I do think yak is already better. Much better footspeed and already 3 or 4 blocks in two games that I've never seen jv make in 4 years. Post defense is a different story but yak will get stronger, there is less post offense in the league and you can use a bench guy like Sully in those matchups.
        Lowry's game will age well unless he gets injured. He's a championship piece pg like billups imo.
        I think Lowry is the one that includes jv somewhat. Demar hardly at all.
        I'm a jv fan but as a fan we are not using him. We should but if we don't then it might be better to consider him as a chip. I thought the playoffs and game one would shift his usage but not sure it has or will?
        Until the last game, JV was averaging the same # of FGA and FTA as he was in the playoffs. He's just that good at producing while being an afterthought.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • Even if we don't use JV all that much, he's there when we need to, he's very good at generating offense when required, he's young, and he's cheap.

          There's no pressing need to get rid of him - even if we aren't going to use him to his full potential.
          twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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          • Axel wrote: View Post
            Until the last game, JV was averaging the same # of FGA and FTA as he was in the playoffs. He's just that good at producing while being an afterthought.
            Averaging bc when he was used he was a monster and when not he's just solid on offense, solid on defense. Solid gets you to the playoffs but monsters win. Use him or get someone more useful imo. He's standing under the net all the time wide open. It's brutal.

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            • Barolt wrote: View Post
              Even if we don't use JV all that much, he's there when we need to, he's very good at generating offense when required, he's young, and he's cheap.

              There's no pressing need to get rid of him - even if we aren't going to use him to his full potential.
              We have a glaring hole at the 4 and jv is probably our best trade chip.

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              • lewro wrote: View Post
                We have a glaring hole at the 4 and jv is probably our best trade chip.
                So we should patch one hole by making another?
                twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                • lewro wrote: View Post
                  We have a glaring hole at the 4 and jv is probably our best trade chip.
                  Is it glaring? Last year we had arguably our worst PF options since...before we drafted Bosh? And we won 56 games, also with a massive hole at SF for much of the year.

                  I mean, i as much as anybody think we could stand to upgrade our PF spot, but a role player we can rely on would be fine. We don't need to shed our best young piece (with the best non-rookie contract on the team) to fill that spot.

                  *I've even used the word glaring before for this hole, but mostly we need stability and fit, not opening a hole at C to get a player of similar value at PF.

                  Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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                  • lewro wrote: View Post
                    We have a glaring hole at the 4 and jv is probably our best trade chip.
                    Then the Raptors would have a glaring hole at center. Poeltl is not going to fill it, nor is Bebe.

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                    • We are asking for a center that is good on pnr defence, can rebound, rim protect and set screens. Yak will be better at these things in time imo. Jv might be the better all around player but not the better fit. We still have a colangelo fit in our core and it's not ideal. I think it will be easier and less of a drop off to have a center that fits are needs in exchange for a pf bc our needs are more demanding there. We basically need all the things outlined above but also someone that can shoot the 3. That's a very good and coveted player. You have to give a lot to get that. Jv is giving a lot but the loss is mitigated by fit and usage.
                      This is still colangelo team and it needs revision.
                      I think a rental test on Noel is a good opportunity. If it doesn't work, we still have jv and yak is a yr older. It's very hard to upgrade talent when you are capped, especially on the cheap. We need more talent to compete at the championship level.

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                      • Puffer wrote: View Post
                        Then the Raptors would have a glaring hole at center. Poeltl is not going to fill it, nor is Bebe.
                        Yeah, our best non-JV big man is Patterson, a PF. If there's a hole at PF now, there would be a chasm at C after moving JV. Even if we then made a move for a guy like Noel, he's probably a worse fit at C than Patterson is at PF, and we break even at best (while presumably getting older with the PF we trade for).
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • lewro wrote: View Post
                          We are asking for a center that is good on pnr defence, can rebound, rim protect and set screens. Yak will be better at these things in time imo. Jv might be the better all around player but not the better fit. We still have a colangelo fit in our core and it's not ideal. I think it will be easier and less of a drop off to have a center that fits are needs in exchange for a pf bc our needs are more demanding there. We basically need all the things outlined above but also someone that can shoot the 3. That's a very good and coveted player. You have to give a lot to get that. Jv is giving a lot but the loss is mitigated by fit and usage.
                          This is still colangelo team and it needs revision.
                          I think a rental test on Noel is a good opportunity. If it doesn't work, we still have jv and yak is a yr older. It's very hard to upgrade talent when you are capped, especially on the cheap. We need more talent to compete at the championship level.
                          Even if you 100% believe Jak will be better(I don't), the bolded is critical. Lowry is 30, DeMar is 27. We don't have the luxury of time with this core, we need to win in the next 2-3 years.
                          twitter.com/anthonysmdoyle

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                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            Yeah, our best non-JV big man is Patterson, a PF. If there's a hole at PF now, there would be a chasm at C after moving JV. Even if we then made a move for a guy like Noel, he's probably a worse fit at C than Patterson is at PF, and we break even at best (while presumably getting older with the PF we trade for).
                            If pat is your second best big man (I'd say it's yak based on potential) and you're trying to compete for a championship then you need help.
                            You make a strong presumption that we get older. Jv is worth a similar player (age, contract,etc) at pf that might be a better fit.

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                            • Barolt wrote: View Post
                              Even if you 100% believe Jak will be better(I don't), the bolded is critical. Lowry is 30, DeMar is 27. We don't have the luxury of time with this core, we need to win in the next 2-3 years.
                              I said yak might be the better fit, not player. Lowry's style will age well but demar the one to build around and that shift the window to 3-5 years. Our old guys are Lowry and Dmc. That's not getting it done. We have more potential in our youth and we are a young team. Not to mention lebrons window. Lowry can still be a good piece but don't hitch your cart to him.

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                              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                                KD could've asked out at any time. It's a superstar's league. How often does a team not trade a guy who wants out, especially a player that good? Most of the time stars go where they want. And it pretty much never ends well for a team that plays hardball or drags things out. Image doesn't matter. It won't affect his sponsorships, and any stores relating to it would fade as long as he has success on his new team.

                                The Pels aren't exactly putting contenders around him. If he asked out, got traded and his new team was winning, whoever might write anti-Davis stories for the trade demand would quickly change their tune to "the Pels should only blame themselves for not giving him a better team". Don't forget there are positives for the Pels to act on his demand. He's young and locked in...his trade value would be stupidly high. The longer they wait the more risk that teams will start lowballing and it might impact dealings with that player's agent/agency (also important in a star's league).

                                If Davis is a top 5 talent for the next 10-15 years, he is one of the most powerful people in the league and will be able to basically dictate where he plays. I'm not saying he will demand a trade, but if he ever does the Pels would likely accommodate.
                                This is so far from being true and your argument is blurring lines. Can players force their way out?! Sure. Does it ever happen at this stage of a player's career (which is the most relevant question)? NO. That really is the key to this debate because some of you are implying NOW and right now AD will have no power as he just locked himself in and the Pels aren't under the gun at all to comply and won't.

                                The vast majority of elite prospects, particularily #1 picks (aside from Duncan fluking to SAS) join VERY bad teams hence being getting the top pick and they are so for YEARS. If AD said right now he isn't happy, the Pelicans would just feed him and the media bs about being patient with the process and there wouldn't be anything he could do, he signed the extension which is another key thing here and in fact I should stop on that point and wait for a reply (which I won't lol but please do answer)...



                                Please give me some examples where any franchise had a top 3 talent before entering his prime that JUST signed an extension, traded them because they demanded it in the first year of his extension or even second (that gives you a year ahead of where AD is)???? I'll wait.



                                ...and to ruin the surprise, it doesn't happen. What does happen 99.99% of the time, these players hate it, the media asks the players how they feel, they try to handle it "properly", say things like it's not their decision, they're just here to play basketball, they leave that up to them...yada yada yada...then the franchise beats the player to the punch and says everyone needs to be patient with the process and allow them time to build and then what happens????

                                Then Scenario #1 either franchise does put some pieces in place (usually through the draft which takes years) and gradually they become better and more relevant to either the point the player sees they can't win it all and darts or they stay and go for it...OR Scenario #2 the player nears the END of their extension (usually in the final 2 years of the extension) is fed up, the team doesn't have a leg to stand on because they're still bad and only THEN demands a trade and the franchise is forced to work with them because they are UFAs and they could lose them for nothing.

                                You can go down the list of superstars but you'll be hardpressed to find any that signed an extension and were able to get out in their first or even second year of that extension which is when you're insinuating they can push to be moved despite the franchise having the upper hand. Players aren't able to force their way until the second last year of their extension at the earliest, not the first two as you're saying because there is a power shift between them on the franchise who has the upperhand....anyways back to JV
                                Last edited by JamesNaismith; Sun Nov 6th, 2016, 01:45 PM.

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