Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Everything Valanciunas

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • OK, this is the argument of "it hasn't happened before therefore it will never happen". That's not an argument. Maybe it has to do with historically, no team I can think of has done such a colossally bad job building around a generational talent. By the 1st/2nd year of most superstars/perennial all-star type players' extensions, they are usually on at least a playoff contender that they have at least modest success with. That's not the case with Davis. They made the playoffs once, and their team actually looks like it's gotten worse. So when you say no superstar has ever asked out in the 1st/2nd year of an extension, has any such star ever been in such an obviously terrible situation?

    The real issue is two-fold

    -Has any superstar EVER not dictated where they end up playing? Ever? They always go where they want, regardless of specific timing.

    -Has any team ever benefitted from dragging out the mediocrity process and waiting til the 2nd last/last year of a superstar's contract to trade him? The answer is no. Never. The team that tries to play the "process" card and convince the guy to give the situation a chance almost always ends up not getting anything close to good value. Doesn't even matter if the guy doesn't ask for a trade, if a team sucks and has a star, it gets harder and harder to get the value you'd want back the closer it gets to the end of his contract.

    Name me one single superstar in the last 25 years who was forced to stay somewhere they didn't want to play?

    *I totally understand the point you're trying to make...but just because something is unprecedented doesn't mean it won't happen.
    ->It was unprecedented for stars to dictate where they go in trades at all, but since Shaq did it to get to Miami in the mid-00s, it is not uncommon at all
    -> It was unprecedented for 3 top players to all collude to end up in the same place, nevertheless it happened with the Heatles
    -> Another one for LeBron was it was unprecedented for a player to start his career with a team, leave to win, end up winning, and then for some reason decide to go back to the team he started with...yes it being his hometown definitely skews the process, but it was still something that never happened before.

    Superstars have been on a consistent upward trend in terms of their power to influence things in the league, including where they play, and frankly nothing would surprise me at this point, not even a young stud asking out in the 1st/2nd year of an extension.

    **Oh and btw, when Vince asked out of Toronto (and yes he was a superstar at the time, or at least a big enough one to fit into this discussion), he had 3 more years left on his contract. Davis will have the same after this summer (has a player option to opt out before the last year, which stars always do unless they have health issues). That situation was messy and it did zero damage to Carter's reputation (outside Toronto). Davis is an even bigger star in an era where they have even more control.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Nov 6th, 2016, 04:26 PM.

    Comment


    • Jonas looking solid - still a good bet to make the all-star game as the third pillar of the 2nd best team in the East.

      Comment


      • JV is still developing and his value will likely be realized when Lowry starts to decline during his next contract if he resigns. Trading him now would be a bad move IMO unless you think the return you're getting can elevate you above CLE this season or next. JV and Demar are the future of the team. Demar should have 5-6+ good seasons ahead of him, and JV even more. They are the two to build around going forward, with JV shouldering more responsibility as Lowry becomes increasingly less capable of playing All-NBA caliber ball.

        I love what I have seen from Poeltl, but he is a rookie and needs a few more seasons under his belt while showing improvement before I'd believe he could replace JV, regardless of the rest of the roster. But I have a longer term view than most I think, and I like the possibility of having the best 2 man C combo in the league down the road. And if for some reason it becomes clear that Poeltl can start and trading JV can round out the roster better, than why not do it after Poeltl signs an extension and JV gets his third and most likely very lucrative contract? Carving up a $30M JV contract for solid role players and maybe a heir to Lowry might have a greater chance at success than trading JV this season and getting a return that can get us past CLE.

        p.s...I like Siakam too, and am in no rush to "upgrade" the PF position right now, especially with Sully still to play this season. Although I can understand the argument given that Patterson and Sully will be free agents in 2017, if I'm not mistaken.

        Comment


        • I'm not sure I buy the jv gets more opportunity as Lowry declines line. Lowry hasn't had a good scoring game yet. Lowry is the only one that looks for jv and he barely bothers as a shoot first pg. Dd would assume more control and he just treats jv like a pylon.

          Comment


          • lewro wrote: View Post
            I'm not sure I buy the jv gets more opportunity as Lowry declines line. Lowry hasn't had a good scoring game yet. Lowry is the only one that looks for jv and he barely bothers as a shoot first pg. Dd would assume more control and he just treats jv like a pylon.
            Right now this is Lowry and Demar's team. They are the drivers. As Lowry declines which is likely to happen during his next contract, the team's focus, as well as Lowry's (because he is a team player), will be to find another driver to shoulder the offensive load. JV is developing into that player right now. And I'm sure Demar will enjoy having another partner to help with the offense when Lowry starts to slow. Basically, I would expect a shift in how the offense is run from being almost completely guard oriented to being more inside-outside and JV a focal point as a #2 to Demar. Also, the JV/Demar PnR has been very successful for this team in the past, and if/when Lowry's abilities lessen, it would be a great way to get JV more usage. I'm sure I could be wrong, but that's basically the way I would go in the next few years if I had a say in things. I certainly wouldn't move JV unless I thought the return would get me past CLE now, or give the team a better 1-2 punch going forward as Lowry declined.

            Comment


            • You logic is sound but where I have trouble envisioning this is that imo Lowry is good at lobs and that's it. He could improve with age but hes played one style his whole life so I have reservations. Demar can't pass. Like not even entry pass (Lowry can I missed that). I give credit to demar that he can improve this but his vision is terrible and that's something I don't think he can improve.

              Comment


              • What's the word on JV? Does anyone else have a hard time believing anything the raptors say when it comes to injury now? Sully went from day to day to having surgery. DC run around last year.

                Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                @Chr1st1anL

                Comment


                • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                  What's the word on JV? Does anyone else have a hard time believing anything the raptors say when it comes to injury now? Sully went from day to day to having surgery. DC run around last year.

                  Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk



                  Comment


                  • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                    OK, this is the argument of "it hasn't happened before therefore it will never happen". That's not an argument. Maybe it has to do with historically, no team I can think of has done such a colossally bad job building around a generational talent. By the 1st/2nd year of most superstars/perennial all-star type players' extensions, they are usually on at least a playoff contender that they have at least modest success with. That's not the case with Davis. They made the playoffs once, and their team actually looks like it's gotten worse. So when you say no superstar has ever asked out in the 1st/2nd year of an extension, has any such star ever been in such an obviously terrible situation?

                    The real issue is two-fold

                    -Has any superstar EVER not dictated where they end up playing? Ever? They always go where they want, regardless of specific timing.

                    -Has any team ever benefitted from dragging out the mediocrity process and waiting til the 2nd last/last year of a superstar's contract to trade him? The answer is no. Never. The team that tries to play the "process" card and convince the guy to give the situation a chance almost always ends up not getting anything close to good value. Doesn't even matter if the guy doesn't ask for a trade, if a team sucks and has a star, it gets harder and harder to get the value you'd want back the closer it gets to the end of his contract.

                    Name me one single superstar in the last 25 years who was forced to stay somewhere they didn't want to play?

                    *I totally understand the point you're trying to make...but just because something is unprecedented doesn't mean it won't happen.
                    ->It was unprecedented for stars to dictate where they go in trades at all, but since Shaq did it to get to Miami in the mid-00s, it is not uncommon at all
                    -> It was unprecedented for 3 top players to all collude to end up in the same place, nevertheless it happened with the Heatles
                    -> Another one for LeBron was it was unprecedented for a player to start his career with a team, leave to win, end up winning, and then for some reason decide to go back to the team he started with...yes it being his hometown definitely skews the process, but it was still something that never happened before.

                    Superstars have been on a consistent upward trend in terms of their power to influence things in the league, including where they play, and frankly nothing would surprise me at this point, not even a young stud asking out in the 1st/2nd year of an extension.

                    **Oh and btw, when Vince asked out of Toronto (and yes he was a superstar at the time, or at least a big enough one to fit into this discussion), he had 3 more years left on his contract. Davis will have the same after this summer (has a player option to opt out before the last year, which stars always do unless they have health issues). That situation was messy and it did zero damage to Carter's reputation (outside Toronto). Davis is an even bigger star in an era where they have even more control.
                    They do have more control, or it's at least more accepted for them to exert their control, because I seem to remember players demanding trades or pouting their way out of cities for as long as I have been watching sports. Some writers/talking heads bring it up today like it never used to happen. Charles Barkley (who rails hard against The Decision) pushed his way out of Philly, Eric Lindros refused to play in Quebec. Those are two early 90's examples from when I basically started paying attention. Steve Francis refused to play for Vancouver. Vince pouted his way out of Toronto.

                    I guess fans/media maybe used to frown on that more and accept it more now, but it still happened regularly enough. Not sure if anyone with more grey hair than me knows examples from the 80's or earlier.
                    "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                    Comment


                    • I believe Kareem wanted out of Milwaukee and got his wish. So it happened in the 70's with arguably the best player in the league.

                      Comment


                      • if Big Val is smart, he will ask to be traded. He is nothing but a glorified garbage man here and it will be years before DD and KL get him involved on the offence.

                        Comment


                        • McRealistic wrote: View Post
                          if Big Val is smart, he will ask to be traded. He is nothing but a glorified garbage man here and it will be years before DD and KL get him involved on the offence.
                          Connecting rumors and stuff, Adridge for JV and PPat then Ross for Noel? Picks going whichever way as needed. This is mostly just making moves to make moves though for Raps and Spurs, as both are already very good.

                          Very certain JV would never ask for a trade though, hes such a team player. He took a large pay cut from what he would have gotten last off season, and even at that point everyone thought he needed to be more involved.

                          Comment


                          • DogeLover1234 wrote: View Post
                            Connecting rumors and stuff, Adridge for JV and PPat then Ross for Noel? Picks going whichever way as needed. This is mostly just making moves to make moves though for Raps and Spurs, as both are already very good.

                            Very certain JV would never ask for a trade though, hes such a team player. He took a large pay cut from what he would have gotten last off season, and even at that point everyone thought he needed to be more involved.
                            Aldridge for JV would actually make sense, age-wise for both teams. Aldridge (31) being closer in age to Lowry (30) and JV (24) being close in age to build around Kawhi (25). Spurs would need to find one more young star, ideally a PG, to complete the rebuild.

                            Comment


                            • Never thought Gasol/JV pairing would work.. and I don't see why San Antonio would take that gamble. Although Carroll would fit their system great.. maybe Kwahi can be moved to SG?

                              How about Aldridge&Gasol for JV&Carroll?

                              Would need to add some prospects (or Sully) to make the cap math work, but who blinks on that one?

                              Comment


                              • planetmars wrote: View Post
                                Never thought Gasol/JV pairing would work.. and I don't see why San Antonio would take that gamble. Although Carroll would fit their system great.. maybe Kwahi can be moved to SG?

                                How about Aldridge&Gasol for JV&Carroll?

                                Would need to add some prospects (or Sully) to make the cap math work, but who blinks on that one?
                                Are you for real ? Do you really think SA will do that !!! Come on ...

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X