Everything Valanciunas

[charlesnba23]

I don't agree with the "trade him for the sake of his career" argument at all either.

My argument, ever since it became clear that he's never going to be fully utilized in this current regime, is that as an asset he is being totally wasted in his current role. We could trade Jonas and get real value that would actually change the dynamic of our team, and replace his rebounding/garbageman role at a fraction of the price. It's a resource issue.

And this is coming from a massive Jonas homer. But the team comes first.

If you trade JV, you better get something HUGE coming back our way. With that being said, I'd be really sad.

[Scraptor]

If you trade JV, you better get something HUGE coming back our way. With that being said, I'd be really sad.

As I said in the trade chatter thread, only way he goes out is if we have an all-star caliber player coming back in.

[Abbas]

As I said in the trade chatter thread, only way he goes out is if we have an all-star caliber player coming back in.

This.

The only non allstar type player i woould trade him for is Rudy Gorbert

Why?

B/c Rudy game (kind of like Deandre's) fits perfectly with our needs. Doesnt need the ball all that much, Very good defensively, fast, and the cherry on top is he's young and locked up

[Nilanka]

I don't agree with the "trade him for the sake of his career" argument at all either.

My argument, ever since it became clear that he's never going to be fully utilized in this current regime, is that as an asset he is being totally wasted in his current role. We could trade Jonas and get real value that would actually change the dynamic of our team, and replace his rebounding/garbageman role at a fraction of the price. It's a resource issue.

And this is coming from a massive Jonas homer. But the team comes first.

This is a good point. Jonas' contract is good value, but only on paper. If he's being used in the same way Aaron Gray was being used, Jonas contract is not good value, and should be moved for someone who better fits Casey's system.

[DanH]

This is a good point. Jonas' contract is good value, but only on paper. If he's being used in the same way Aaron Gray was being used, Jonas contract is not good value, and should be moved for someone who better fits Casey's system.

JV's contract is good value as he is being used. It's amazing value if he's used to his full potential. He's produced 1 WS so far this season - projects to 7.5 WS for the year. At roughly 2.6M per WS (105M average team salary, 41 average team wins), he's a bargain at 14M, being worth roughly 19M. Now, he'd be an even better bargain if he was used for more minutes, or to his full potential offensively, but that does not make him a bad value deal right now.

[Nilanka]

JV's contract is good value as he is being used. It's amazing value if he's used to his full potential. He's produced 1 WS so far this season - projects to 7.5 WS for the year. At roughly 2.6M per WS (105M average team salary, 41 average team wins), he's a bargain at 14M, being worth roughly 19M. Now, he'd be an even better bargain if he was used for more minutes, or to his full potential offensively, but that does not make him a bad value deal right now.

I've come to the realization that the bold will never happen.

$14 million for a guy to set screens and rebound.

[KHD]

I've come to the realization that the bold will never happen.

$14 million for a guy to set screens and rebound.

i mean, that's the going rate for "guys over 7 feet" in this league based on last summer, so it's not actually that bad.

But yeah, it's pretty sad to see wasted potential, especially since the team would go from pretender to outside-shot finals contender if they were more balanced.

[Nilanka]

i mean, that's the going rate for "guys over 7 feet" in this league based on last summer, so it's not actually that bad.

But yeah, it's pretty sad to see wasted potential, especially since the team would go from pretender to outside-shot finals contender if they were more balanced.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but couldn't a Henson ($12 million), Gortat ($12 million), Vucevic ($12 million), Bogut ($11 million), Varejao ($11 million), Jefferson ($10 million), Asik ($10 million), Koufas ($8 million), etc. do the same simple things that Jonas is asked to do?

I'm not saying I'd want any of these guys ahead of Jonas, but it seems like we paid him based on future potential. This belief that one day, Jonas will be a legit offensive weapon that defenses need to scheme for. I just don't see that happening under Casey, while both Lowry and DeRozan are around.

Now if Lowry throws us a curve ball, and signs elsewhere this summer, then all of this changes.

[KHD]

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but couldn't a Henson ($12 million), Gortat ($12 million), Vucevic ($12 million), ($11 million), Bogut ($11 million), Varejao ($11 million), Jefferson ($10 million), Asik ($10 million), Koufas ($8 million), etc. do the same simple things that Jonas is asked to do?

I'm not saying I'd want any of these guys ahead of Jonas, but it seems like we paid him based on future potential. This belief that one day, Jonas will be a legit offensive weapon that defenses need to scheme for. I just don't see that happening under Casey, while both Lowry and DeRozan are around.

Now if Lowry throws us a curve ball, and signs elsewhere this summer, then all of this changes.

i'm not really a fan of the idea of dumping a guy who is 1) legitimately talented and 2) by all indications a terrific, team-first player, in order to acquire a less talented, less accomodating guy who happens to maybe better fit what the current (terrible) coach is trying to do.

those guys could do what he's doing under casey, but it's not like we're unlocking any more flexibility if we pay gortat 12M vs JV 14M.

Especially considering that, like you say, lowry is an unknown quantity this summer and is going to be over 30.

[3inthekeon]

JV's contract is good value as he is being used. It's amazing value if he's used to his full potential. He's produced 1 WS so far this season - projects to 7.5 WS for the year. At roughly 2.6M per WS (105M average team salary, 41 average team wins), he's a bargain at 14M, being worth roughly 19M. Now, he'd be an even better bargain if he was used for more minutes, or to his full potential offensively, but that does not make him a bad value deal right now.

Not trying to defend Casey's use of JV or the Raptors inability to fully integrate him into the offence, but I do want to point out that WS should be taken with a huge grain to salt when being used as a stand-alone in determining players true value.

A very similar player to JV is Enes Kanter. Both are highly efficient scorers, excellent rebounders and slow-footed defenders. I believe you pointed out JV's outstanding .211 WS/48 last year set a Raptors record. Kanter, who most impartial observers would not rate as highly as JV had an even better .226 WS/48 last year.

This year he's surpassing JV again .193 WS/48 to JV's .185. Yet, for all our griping about JV's lack of minutes - 26.0 MPG last year/27.9 this year, Kanter, with the better WS numbers, seems to considered less trustworthy by Donovan than JV is by Casey - 21.0 MPG last year/ 18.4 this year. It's Adams with his .112 WS/48 who is playing almost 32 MPG for OKC.

[Nilanka]

Not trying to defend Casey's use of JV or the Raptors inability to fully integrate him into the offence, but I do want to point out that WS should be taken with a huge grain to salt when being used as a stand-alone in determining players true value.

A very similar player to JV is Enes Kanter. Both are highly efficient scorers, excellent rebounders and slow-footed defenders. I believe you pointed out JV's outstanding .211 WS/48 last year set a Raptors record. Kanter, who most impartial observers would not rate as highly as JV had an even better .226 WS/48 last year.

This year he's surpassing JV again .193 WS/48 to JV's .185. Yet, for all our griping about JV's lack of minutes - 26.0 MPG last year/27.9 this year, Kanter, with the better WS numbers, seems to considered less trustworthy by Donovan than JV is by Casey - 21.0 MPG last year/ 18.4 this year. It's Adams with his .112 WS/48 who is playing almost 32 MPG for OKC.

Kanter is a much poorer defensive player (compared to Jonas), no?

[tDotted]

Kanter is a much poorer defensive player (compared to Jonas), no?

He's one of the worst defenders in the league, not to talk of compared to Jonas. He also has a worse BPM and VORP, you know the real impact stats.

[golden]

Kanter is a much poorer defensive player (compared to Jonas), no?

And Kanter plays mostly against backups. You'd need some sort of adjusted stat to compare them straight up vs. the level of competition they play against.

[3inthekeon]

Kanter is a much poorer defensive player (compared to Jonas), no?

I believe so, most everyone believes so, yet Kanter has twice JV's defensive WS this year despite playing fewer minutes. Sorry, I trust that stat even less than RPM or BPM.

[lewro]

You fire the coach or trade the player. I don't bother yelling jv is wide open at the TV anymore. It's been years.
Debatable whether jvs situation improves if Lowry leaves. Lowry is not ideal with jv but he does try and can play with him a bit.
Likely another pg will be chosen to facilitate demar which probably reduces jvs touches even more.
Ffs we are playing bebe and siakam ahead of jv at this point. These guys are just happy to be in the league. They're playing 30mins and closing for a #2 seed vs the former champs. That's a pretty good window into the mind of Casey.