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  • DanH wrote: View Post
    Monroe is a decent compare, though JV has traditionally been far more efficient and a significantly better offensive rebounder. They are pretty comparable defensively. Monroe could pretty easily be classified as a poor man's JV, though he's had more opportunity in high usage roles so has gotten more attention. Pretty much the same for Vuc, except he's a significantly worse rebounder and significantly less efficient (though on significantly higher usage than either of the other two). Same mediocre defence. I'd classify both players as the same category of player as JV, but not as good as him.

    So it is fair to say both of those guys have been relegated to bench roles, but I don't think it's fair to say that's because of their style of play - they just aren't as good as JV, and talent is the ultimate differentiator in the NBA. They are both borderline starting quality players, so when their fit is questionable, they get booted to lesser roles. JV has established himself as a solid starter (who is elite at certain things), which is the difference.
    I dont think JV is that much better than those guys. To say he is more talented than those guys.

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    Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Fri Dec 30, 2016, 06:15 PM.
    @Chr1st1anL

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    • Based on defensive real plus minus he is ranked 61st out of 69 centers.

      http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/r...RPM/position/9

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      • slamdunk23 wrote: View Post
        Based on defensive real plus minus he is ranked 61st out of 69 centers.

        http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/r...RPM/position/9
        Turtle's at 34th, above Whiteside

        #FreeTurtle

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        • DanH wrote: View Post
          Kanter is a bad compare for JV. JV is pretty meh defensively overall, and definitely has his weaknesses. But Kanter is truly brutal - completely useless on that end. Kanter is indeed a slightly better (or at least more used and proven) offensive player, but overall is not nearly the same level of all around contributor as JV is due to his horrendous defence.

          There's basically no evidence that JV is anywhere near a comparable defender to Kanter in any way that would relegate him to a career bench player like Kanter is.
          Keep in mind that I like JV and don't think he's as bad as Kanter defensively, but to play devil's advocate:

          Among centres, JV is 61st and Kanter is 65th in defensive RPM.
          Players shoot 2.5% better when guarded by JV, 1.9% worse when guarded by Kanter.
          Jonas allows a DFG% of 53.6% at the rim, Kanter 53.1%.
          Jonas allows 1.15 PPP on the pick and roll man, Kanter 0.59.
          Raps are -9.1 worse in Dratg with Jonas on the floor, Thunder are -6.1 worse with Kanter on the floor.

          To say there's no evidence they are comparable defenders isn't accurate imo. The huge caveat/context to this is that JV is facing starters while Kanter is mostly facing bench lineups. But it still doesn't reflect well on Jonas, and without some way to measure and compare perimeter penetration, someone could make the statistical argument.

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          • tDotted wrote: View Post
            Turtle's at 34th, above Whiteside

            #FreeTurtle
            Whiteside is pretty bad on defense too he just hunts for blocks.

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            • tDotted wrote: View Post
              Turtle's at 34th, above Whiteside

              #FreeTurtle
              Whew problem solved.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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              • Axel wrote: View Post
                Whew problem solved.
                Problem solved if opponents start their garbage time units.
                If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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                • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                  Keep in mind that I like JV and don't think he's as bad as Kanter defensively, but to play devil's advocate:

                  Among centres, JV is 61st and Kanter is 65th in defensive RPM.
                  Players shoot 2.5% better when guarded by JV, 1.9% worse when guarded by Kanter.
                  Jonas allows a DFG% of 53.6% at the rim, Kanter 53.1%.
                  Jonas allows 1.15 PPP on the pick and roll man, Kanter 0.59.
                  Raps are -9.1 worse in Dratg with Jonas on the floor, Thunder are -6.1 worse with Kanter on the floor.

                  To say there's no evidence they are comparable defenders isn't accurate imo. The huge caveat/context to this is that JV is facing starters while Kanter is mostly facing bench lineups. But it still doesn't reflect well on Jonas, and without some way to measure and compare perimeter penetration, someone could make the statistical argument.
                  It's all Siakam's fault.

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                  @Chr1st1anL

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                  • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                    Keep in mind that I like JV and don't think he's as bad as Kanter defensively, but to play devil's advocate:

                    Among centres, JV is 61st and Kanter is 65th in defensive RPM.
                    Players shoot 2.5% better when guarded by JV, 1.9% worse when guarded by Kanter.
                    Jonas allows a DFG% of 53.6% at the rim, Kanter 53.1%.
                    Jonas allows 1.15 PPP on the pick and roll man, Kanter 0.59.
                    Raps are -9.1 worse in Dratg with Jonas on the floor, Thunder are -6.1 worse with Kanter on the floor.

                    To say there's no evidence they are comparable defenders isn't accurate imo. The huge caveat/context to this is that JV is facing starters while Kanter is mostly facing bench lineups. But it still doesn't reflect well on Jonas, and without some way to measure and compare perimeter penetration, someone could make the statistical argument.
                    Partial season RPM is garbage. Just look back one season to last year for a full year sample and JV is 46th among C's with a mediocre 0.64 while Kanter is a 2nd worst league wide -1.5. Or if you prefer the more stable BPM, JV has consistently floated around average (give or take half a point) while Kanter... has not (never a season better than -1, career average of -2 and most recent full seasons of -2.3 and -3.1 - that -3.1 last season was 4th worst of all players in the league last season with >1000 minutes, which is impressive, as C's have heavily positively skewed DBPM numbers).

                    DFG% is all noise, I've covered this time and time again. Points given up in pick and roll is a system thing, which has also been covered.

                    Let's say, to be fair, that the evidence that you could assemble to make that point is flimsy as all heck and using larger samples and more stable metrics tells the story I was outlining.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                      It's all Siakam's fault.

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                      Much of it, yeah, actually. It's no coincidence the starting lineup with Patterson in Siakam's place is literally 10 points better defensively.

                      JV has his weaknesses but he's a perfectly viable defender in this system against most matchups.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post
                        Much of it, yeah, actually. It's no coincidence the starting lineup with Patterson in Siakam's place is literally 10 points better defensively.

                        JV has his weaknesses but he's a perfectly viable defender in this system against most matchups.
                        His weakness are what Kyle/Demar need the most out of thier starting center defensively. Were about to commit a lot of money to those two. That means we need to get the most out of those two. That means covering up thier weakness'. JV doesn't do that. JV doesn't allow them to play to thier strength defensively. All he does is make all three of them look bad defensively.

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                        @Chr1st1anL

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                        • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                          His weakness are what Kyle/Demar need the most out of thier starting center defensively. Were about to commit a lot of money to those two. That means we need to get the most out of those two. That means covering up thier weakness'. JV doesn't do that. JV doesn't allow them to play to thier strength defensively. All he does is make all three of them look bad defensively.

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                          Nicely Said. I don't know why people just don't get it !!! If MU signs KL this summer, then this is DD and KL's team. This means the rest of the team HAS TO complement their weakness. It is that Simple.

                          JV is a great player but not when he is playing with DD and KL. Unless we are going to get a great PF , then JV needs to be moved.

                          But this is not going to happen this season. It will be in the off season.

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                          • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                            His weakness are what Kyle/Demar need the most out of thier starting center defensively. Were about to commit a lot of money to those two. That means we need to get the most out of those two. That means covering up thier weakness'. JV doesn't do that. JV doesn't allow them to play to thier strength defensively. All he does is make all three of them look bad defensively.

                            Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                            What those two need most is a C who commands attention inside on the roll and can pop for jumpers and can set solid screens and can grab offensive boards when the shots aren't falling. Reality is, this team will live or die by its offence so long as it has two offensive minded (DD more so than Lowry, but Lowry is only elite defensively for spurts) guards as its centrepieces.

                            The defensive issues we have with JV right now are not going to be solved by replacing him with a defence-first athletic C. And most of the apparent defensive issues we have with JV somehow magically aren't nearly as much of an issue with Patterson on the floor.
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                            • McRealistic wrote: View Post
                              Nicely Said. I don't know why people just don't get it !!! If MU signs KL this summer, then this is DD and KL's team. This means the rest of the team HAS TO complement their weakness. It is that Simple.

                              JV is a great player but not when he is playing with DD and KL. Unless we are going to get a great PF , then JV needs to be moved.

                              But this is not going to happen this season. It will be in the off season.
                              DD, Lowry and JV play together basically only against the opponents' best and together on the court they have a +7 net rating. They are the single most used threesome of players on a team on pace for 55+ wins. I think they fit together just fine.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                              • McRealistic wrote: View Post
                                Nicely Said. I don't know why people just don't get it !!! If MU signs KL this summer, then this is DD and KL's team. This means the rest of the team HAS TO complement their weakness. It is that Simple.

                                JV is a great player but not when he is playing with DD and KL. Unless we are going to get a great PF , then JV needs to be moved.

                                But this is not going to happen this season. It will be in the off season.
                                I'm not asking it to be this year.

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                                @Chr1st1anL

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