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    A.I wrote: View Post
    Okay then why does Siakam continue to start when the starting lineup + Patterson is significantly better offensively and defensively.
    Patterson off the bench would be a defensible strategy (many teams don't necessarily start their best 5) if it wasn't for the fact that our starting lineup with Siakam (and Scola before him) is really a terrible lineup. Sullinger would have prevented this but his injury is once again providing Casey an opportunity to do something illogical.

    JV isn't a problem to finish games but will see more matchup dependent rest simply because Casey rides or does by the guards and seems intent on building his team defence for a Prime Tyson Chandler at C despite the roster.
    Last edited by Axel; Sat Dec 31st, 2016, 06:54 PM.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • A.I wrote: View Post
      Okay then why does Siakam continue to start when the starting lineup + Patterson is significantly better offensively and defensively.
      I answered that already becuase I think he wants to have more experience along side of Bebe.

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      • McRealistic wrote: View Post
        I answered that already becuase I think he wants to have more experience along side of Bebe.
        I don't think Bebe's minutes (both quantity and timing) support that theory. Too often he has games with really low minutes for that to even make sense.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • McRealistic wrote: View Post
          I answered that already becuase I think he wants to have more experience along side of Bebe.
          Okay fine. Then why did Scola start all of last season when Patterson was obviously the better player? Why did Salmons get way too many minutes when he was terrible? Why did Casey not play James Johnson in games where he would have been useful?

          He makes questionable decisions at times.

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          • Was listening to the Dunc'd on podcast and they touched on something which I think has been mentioned before as it pertains to the value of offensively skilled but defensively mediocre bigs. It just simply doesn't make much sense to structure your offense around post-up play unless that player is a superstar (Cousins, Towns --- and they can do a lot of other things as well). It's not a high efficiency play at high volume and is basically just early 2000s iso-ball except you're doing it with a one-way center instead of a one-way wing player. That's why pick and roll and three point shooting are considered to be the best way to play offensively now.

            That's why some of these guys like JV, Kanter, Vuc, Monroe are being marginalized a bit because teams are beginning to realize this more and more. The best offenses in the league are all spread pick and roll.

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            • Lupe wrote: View Post
              Was listening to the Dunc'd on podcast and they touched on something which I think has been mentioned before as it pertains to the value of offensively skilled but defensively mediocre bigs. It just simply doesn't make much sense to structure your offense around post-up play unless that player is a superstar (Cousins, Towns --- and they can do a lot of other things as well). It's not a high efficiency play at high volume and is basically just early 2000s iso-ball except you're doing it with a one-way center instead of a one-way wing player. That's why pick and roll and three point shooting are considered to be the best way to play offensively now.

              That's why some of these guys like JV, Kanter, Vuc, Monroe are being marginalized a bit because teams are beginning to realize this more and more. The best offenses in the league are all spread pick and roll.
              There are exceptions to every rule. As a Raptors fan that should be obvious. All the best offences are assumed to be high passing offences, and the Raptors have the best offence and are anything but.

              And JV's post game is only one of his strengths. He's elite on the roll and is developing a pop game which is actually why he's so valuable to a team that needs a credible roll threat to free up their guards in screen action.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • DanH wrote: View Post
                There are exceptions to every rule. As a Raptors fan that should be obvious. All the best offences are assumed to be high passing offences, and the Raptors have the best offence and are anything but.

                And JV's post game is only one of his strengths. He's elite on the roll and is developing a pop game which is actually why he's so valuable to a team that needs a credible roll threat to free up their guards in screen action.
                Kanter has a better PPP than JV as the roll man (if only slightly) and is a better and more confident shooter too. They're good skills to have but it's a problem when that player isn't good on the defensive end given how crucial top tier defense is at that position.

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                • Lupe wrote: View Post
                  Was listening to the Dunc'd on podcast and they touched on something which I think has been mentioned before as it pertains to the value of offensively skilled but defensively mediocre bigs. It just simply doesn't make much sense to structure your offense around post-up play unless that player is a superstar (Cousins, Towns --- and they can do a lot of other things as well). It's not a high efficiency play at high volume and is basically just early 2000s iso-ball except you're doing it with a one-way center instead of a one-way wing player. That's why pick and roll and three point shooting are considered to be the best way to play offensively now.

                  That's why some of these guys like JV, Kanter, Vuc, Monroe are being marginalized a bit because teams are beginning to realize this more and more. The best offenses in the league are all spread pick and roll.
                  Bit jv is a really good roll man! Lowry and demar just never pass it to him on the roll. They're really poor at hitting the roll man. (Even bebe is missed so many times).

                  Having jv as a roll threat would free up so much space for our shooters.
                  "Stay steamy"

                  - Kobe

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                  • Lupe wrote: View Post
                    Kanter has a better PPP than JV as the roll man (if only slightly) and is a better and more confident shooter too. They're good skills to have but it's a problem when that player isn't good on the defensive end given how crucial top tier defense is at that position.
                    Scoring on the roll ain't much use if you can't set a screen to save your life. Kanter averages like 1.5 screen assists per game playing with freaking Russell Westbrook. No one is questioning Kanter's ability to score - it's his ability to do anything else that's his problem. JV does a lot more than just score efficiently, and again, comparing him to Kanter dramatically mischaracterizes each player's actual defensive deficiencies.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • DanH wrote: View Post
                      Scoring on the roll ain't much use if you can't set a screen to save your life. Kanter averages like 1.5 screen assists per game playing with freaking Russell Westbrook. No one is questioning Kanter's ability to score - it's his ability to do anything else that's his problem. JV does a lot more than just score efficiently, and again, comparing him to Kanter dramatically mischaracterizes each player's actual defensive deficiencies.
                      Screen assists argument isn't a good one... at all. The Thunder as a whole aren't as good on pick and roll as we are, in fact not even close. We're the best at it at 0.96 PPP, and they're slightly below average at 0.79 PPP. We also run it a lot more than they do with 23.3% frequency vs. 17.3% and 157 more pick and roll possessions on the season (about 25% more).

                      You say "freaking Russell Westbrook" for emphasis. Yeah he runs pick and roll the most but in terms of PPP he's only a bit above average in the 62nd percentile. DeRozan and Lowry are both in the 80s.

                      Plus there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between being on a really good pick and roll team and having a lot of screen assists (obviously there are other ways to get screen assists besides P&R but that's the main one). Toronto, Portland, Charlotte, Utah, Clippers near the top of the league in PPP from the P&R Ball handlers and Valanciunas, Plumlee, Zeller, Gobert and DeAndre all near the top in screen assists.

                      And you keep acting like there's some sort of big gap between Kanter and JV defensively but I'm yet to see any evidence for it. All the defensive statistics there are indicate they're pretty comparable and so do their physical profiles. Both tall, strong bigs who don't move their feet well and aren't that athletic. I know you want to distance JV from Kanter because it gives credence to the idea that he's not an ideal starting center in the modern NBA but the reality is they aren't that far apart.
                      Last edited by Lupe; Sun Jan 1st, 2017, 03:05 PM.

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                      • Lupe wrote: View Post
                        Screen assists argument isn't a good one... at all. The Thunder as a whole aren't as good on pick and roll as we are, in fact not even close. We're the best at it at 0.96 PPP, and they're slightly below average at 0.79 PPP. We also run it a lot more than they do with 23.3% frequency vs. 17.3% and 157 more pick and roll possessions on the season (about 25% more).

                        You say "freaking Russell Westbrook" for emphasis. Yeah he runs pick and roll the most but in terms of PPP he's only a bit above average in the 62nd percentile. DeRozan and Lowry are both in the 80s.

                        Plus there seems to be a pretty strong correlation between being on a really good pick and roll team and having a lot of screen assists (obviously there are other ways to get screen assists besides P&R but that's the main one). Toronto, Portland, Charlotte, Utah, Clippers near the top of the league in PPP from the P&R Ball handlers and Valanciunas, Plumlee, Zeller, Gobert and DeAndre all near the top in screen assists.

                        And you keep acting like there's some sort of big gap between Kanter and JV defensively but I'm yet to see any evidence for it. All the defensive statistics there are indicate they're pretty comparable and so do their physical profiles. Both tall, strong bigs who don't move their feet well and aren't that athletic. I know you want to distance JV from Kanter because it gives credence to the idea that he's not an ideal starting center in the modern NBA but the reality is they aren't that far apart.
                        All the defensive numbers indicate they are comparable? Have you looked at the defensive numbers? The only remotely reasonable (and they definitely aren't great) catch all defensive stats are adjusted plus minus stats, where JV is typically mediocre to sub par and Kanter is historically among the dregs of the league. Not seeing how they are so comparable.

                        I want to distance JV from Kanter because they are very different players and its dishonest to draw conclusions for one from the other.

                        And screen assists are cumulative so volume scoring from a PnR partner would cause those to pile up even if that partner is inefficient. So Westbrook is indeed freaking Westbrook in that sense.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • I'm not saying Kanter gets fewer screen assists, like percentage points fewer. I'm saying JV literally gets multiple times as many (nearly three times as many) as Kanter does. That's not explained away by a few points of efficiency. Never mind the argument that maybe OKC doesn't run as much PnR because they have such a terrible screener playing a good chunk of minutes at C.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • I wouldn't want kanter anchoring a defense in the playoffs. Whether jv is slightly better or twice as good, it's still far from good enough to compete with our rivals.
                            Baseline, he has to at least hold his own vs Dwight and Zaza types.

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                            • lewro wrote: View Post
                              I wouldn't want kanter anchoring a defense in the playoffs. Whether jv is slightly better or twice as good, it's still far from good enough to compete with our rivals.
                              Baseline, he has to at least hold his own vs Dwight and Zaza types.
                              Indeed. And typically he does and much more.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                              • I don't care if he can guard well in the post. It's literally about the most useless defensive skill nowadays since teams hardly run any post ups. We're not going to play Marc Gasol or DeMarcus Cousins in the playoffs, so it's a non-issue. I'd rather the opposite. He suck at post defense and be a great help defender and rim protector (like Whiteside for example). That raises the overall level of a team's defense orders of magnitude more than being able to handle average skilled offensive centers (i.e. the bulk of the centers in the league) on the low block.

                                Would also be nice if he had some lateral quickness.

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