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  • Lupe wrote: View Post
    Quoting someone from realgm here but...this is basically a list of excuses for jonas valanciunas that have been used. (btw on the biyombo trade idea... Umm no lol that's terrible)


    1. Its the offensive system, it doesn't compliment him/He's not utilized properly
    2. Its the defensive style, it doesn't compliment him.
    3. Its because we aren't ICE-ing pick and rolls. Change the defense and he'll be better.
    4. Casey hates him.
    5. Casey didn't develop him and can't develop players.
    6. The guards won't give him the ball.
    7. Too many ISOs (but need more post up ISOs from JV)
    8. The guards let everyone blow by, he can't possibly defend them all.
    9. If he played more minutes, he would be better.
    10. Well, DD plays bad defense, and he gets lots of minutes.
    11. He has to play with Scola, of course his defense is bad.
    12. He has to play with Siakam, of course his defense is bad.
    13. He's been phased out of the team and is mentally broken.
    14. The team made him fat (or too heavy) and that's why he's slow, not his responsibility.
    15. He's injured (only an excuse if not legitimately injured)
    16. Casey, Demar, Lowry etc never made a serious attempt to help JV fit in here..
    17. Deflection - its not JV its XXXXX (usually SF, DD or PF).
    18. Use very small sample sizes to define players skill
    Lol whoever made that list is a numbskull. Half of those are the exact same issues oh wait I mean "excuses".

    Comment


    • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
      Do you have a point to make, or are you just baiting people? Your post doesn't really do much to add to the discussion.

      I'm sure you could scroll through the history of every player-specific thread and find a laundry list of explanations/excuses that have been made. I'm sure the DeRozan and Bargnani threads would generate lists into the triple digits, but what's the point of trolling past conversations in a passive-aggressive manner?
      LJ2 wrote: View Post
      Oh c'mon, he obviously invested some time in putting together that list. Doesn't that kind of blind hate make you giggle even a little bit?
      I didn't put the list together... someone else did. That's why I said I was quoting someone else.

      And anyway it does seem like with JV almost everything negative is someone else's fault.

      Comment


      • Lupe wrote: View Post
        Quoting someone from realgm here but...this is basically a list of excuses for jonas valanciunas that have been used. (btw on the biyombo trade idea... Umm no lol that's terrible)


        1. Its the offensive system, it doesn't compliment him/He's not utilized properly
        2. Its the defensive style, it doesn't compliment him.
        3. Its because we aren't ICE-ing pick and rolls. Change the defense and he'll be better.
        4. Casey hates him.
        5. Casey didn't develop him and can't develop players.
        6. The guards won't give him the ball.
        7. Too many ISOs (but need more post up ISOs from JV)
        8. The guards let everyone blow by, he can't possibly defend them all.
        9. If he played more minutes, he would be better.
        10. Well, DD plays bad defense, and he gets lots of minutes.
        11. He has to play with Scola, of course his defense is bad.
        12. He has to play with Siakam, of course his defense is bad.
        13. He's been phased out of the team and is mentally broken.
        14. The team made him fat (or too heavy) and that's why he's slow, not his responsibility.
        15. He's injured (only an excuse if not legitimately injured)
        16. Casey, Demar, Lowry etc never made a serious attempt to help JV fit in here..
        17. Deflection - its not JV its XXXXX (usually SF, DD or PF).
        18. Use very small sample sizes to define players skill
        You picked the wrong time to be objective on JV. Well technically its never a good time to critique JV on RR. Especially after he just had his best game of his career. Prepare yourself for the full force of the JV fan club.

        Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
        @Chr1st1anL

        Comment


        • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
          You picked the wrong time to be objective on JV. Well technically its never a good time to critique JV on RR. Especially after he just had his best game of his career. Prepare yourself for the full force of the JV fan club.

          Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
          I try to make sure I don't only post criticism after bad games because otherwise people might say I'm just being reactionary.

          Comment


          • Lupe wrote: View Post
            Quoting someone from realgm here but...this is basically a list of excuses for jonas valanciunas that have been used. (btw on the biyombo trade idea... Umm no lol that's terrible)


            1. Its the offensive system, it doesn't compliment him/He's not utilized properly
            2. Its the defensive style, it doesn't compliment him.
            3. Its because we aren't ICE-ing pick and rolls. Change the defense and he'll be better.
            4. Casey hates him.
            5. Casey didn't develop him and can't develop players.
            6. The guards won't give him the ball.
            7. Too many ISOs (but need more post up ISOs from JV)
            8. The guards let everyone blow by, he can't possibly defend them all.
            9. If he played more minutes, he would be better.
            10. Well, DD plays bad defense, and he gets lots of minutes.
            11. He has to play with Scola, of course his defense is bad.
            12. He has to play with Siakam, of course his defense is bad.
            13. He's been phased out of the team and is mentally broken.
            14. The team made him fat (or too heavy) and that's why he's slow, not his responsibility.
            15. He's injured (only an excuse if not legitimately injured)
            16. Casey, Demar, Lowry etc never made a serious attempt to help JV fit in here..
            17. Deflection - its not JV its XXXXX (usually SF, DD or PF).
            18. Use very small sample sizes to define players skill
            While those are all very sharp and salient points, I think I have come up with the real one. I guess it would be number 19. He's spending too much time on this
            http://ittybittyballers.ca/about

            More importantly, we are the best fans. I thought I would check out the site and if they were a decent price, I'd grab one for my kids. $75 each. Each one is sold out.

            Edit: D'oh! Looks like I'm late to the party and this was posted ten days ago. Was out of town so missed the boat on that one.
            Last edited by Jclaw; Fri Jan 13th, 2017, 12:01 AM.

            Comment


            • Lupe wrote: View Post
              I didn't put the list together... someone else did. That's why I said I was quoting someone else.

              And anyway it does seem like with JV almost everything negative is someone else's fault.
              Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
              You picked the wrong time to be objective on JV. Well technically its never a good time to critique JV on RR. Especially after he just had his best game of his career. Prepare yourself for the full force of the JV fan club.

              Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

              I spent years defending DeMar DeRozan against far more severe and legitimate criticism than Jonas has ever earned.

              Even as late as this past summer there were posters on this board saying we should let DD walk in free agency. Think about how immensely stupid that was, both at the time and especially now.

              It's the same myopic thinking with Jonas. Just like DeMar wasn't/isn't the type of SG that fits current popular wisdom (he doesn't shoot threes!), Jonas doesn't conform to what people want out of a C right now (he can't switch on the perimeter!). And even though there is some valid truth to those criticisms (because of course you want your SG to space the floor and your center to defend the pick and roll), some people turn that criticism into a crusade.

              They decide to dismiss/provoke others with terms like "District of Derozan" or "JV fan club", when really, we're just fans of the team and can appreciate the good things that a player brings without defining him by the things that he's bad at.

              It's one thing to want to trade Jonas because he's an underutilized asset. It's another thing to use that, or a bad fit, or a dislike of his game, to rationalize only focusing on his weaknesses and bitching about them nonstop.
              It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

              Comment


              • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                I spent years defending DeMar DeRozan against far more severe and legitimate criticism than Jonas has ever earned.

                Even as late as this past summer there were posters on this board saying we should let DD walk in free agency. Think about how immensely stupid that was, both at the time and especially now.

                It's the same myopic thinking with Jonas. Just like DeMar wasn't/isn't the type of SG that fits current popular wisdom (he doesn't shoot threes!), Jonas doesn't conform to what people want out of a C right now (he can't switch on the perimeter!). And even though there is some valid truth to those criticisms (because of course you want your SG to space the floor and your center to defend the pick and roll), some people turn that criticism into a crusade.

                They decide to dismiss/provoke others with terms like "District of Derozan" or "JV fan club", when really, we're just fans of the team and can appreciate the good things that a player brings without defining him by the things that he's bad at.

                It's one thing to want to trade Jonas because he's an underutilized asset. It's another thing to use that, or a bad fit, or a dislike of his game, to rationalize only focusing on his weaknesses and bitching about them nonstop.

                I like Jonas. I just don't think he's good enough on the defensive end of the floor at all. And it's really not the same as DeMar who mostly guards spot-up shooters when JV as a center is supposed to anchor and be the crux of the team's defense.

                Comment


                • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                  I spent years defending DeMar DeRozan against far more severe and legitimate criticism than Jonas has ever earned.

                  Even as late as this past summer there were posters on this board saying we should let DD walk in free agency. Think about how immensely stupid that was, both at the time and especially now.

                  It's the same myopic thinking with Jonas. Just like DeMar wasn't/isn't the type of SG that fits current popular wisdom (he doesn't shoot threes!), Jonas doesn't conform to what people want out of a C right now (he can't switch on the perimeter!). And even though there is some valid truth to those criticisms (because of course you want your SG to space the floor and your center to defend the pick and roll), some people turn that criticism into a crusade.

                  They decide to dismiss/provoke others with terms like "District of Derozan" or "JV fan club", when really, we're just fans of the team and can appreciate the good things that a player brings without defining him by the things that he's bad at.

                  It's one thing to want to trade Jonas because he's an underutilized asset. It's another thing to use that, or a bad fit, or a dislike of his game, to rationalize only focusing on his weaknesses and bitching about them nonstop.

                  I like Jonas. I just don't think he's good enough on the defensive end of the floor at all. And it's really not the same as DeMar who mostly guards spot-up shooters when JV as a center is supposed to anchor and be the crux of the team's defense.

                  Comment


                  • Lupe wrote: View Post
                    I like Jonas. I just don't think he's good enough on the defensive end of the floor at all. And it's really not the same as DeMar who mostly guards spot-up shooters when JV as a center is supposed to anchor and be the crux of the team's defense.
                    That's not what he's talking about. Demar had major issues with his offense too in the past seasons, and those issues are kinda similar to JV now. (that their game doesn't fit the modern NBA) Patience, in demar's case, has shown fruition now, and that's what he's preaching for jonas: patience. He has talent, undeniable talent.
                    "Stay steamy"

                    - Kobe

                    Comment


                    • hotfuzz wrote: View Post
                      That's not what he's talking about. Demar had major issues with his offense too in the past seasons, and those issues are kinda similar to JV now. (that their game doesn't fit the modern NBA) Patience, in demar's case, has shown fruition now, and that's what he's preaching for jonas: patience. He has talent, undeniable talent.
                      Kind of funny, I heard people say how it takes longer for big men to reach their potential, JV is 24 and isn't in his prime yet and people are already on his case.

                      Comment


                      • hotfuzz wrote: View Post
                        That's not what he's talking about. Demar had major issues with his offense too in the past seasons, and those issues are kinda similar to JV now. (that their game doesn't fit the modern NBA) Patience, in demar's case, has shown fruition now, and that's what he's preaching for jonas: patience. He has talent, undeniable talent.
                        DeRozan is an aberration and quite frankly the patience with him was only justified because we weren't any good and weren't approaching being a title contender. He would've needed to go or be relegated to a bench role if he was taking that long to develop on a team with aspiration to contend. On top of that, it is really rare for players to make the kind of leap he did in his 5th season and then have another significant leap in their 8th season.

                        A.I wrote: View Post
                        Kind of funny, I heard people say how it takes longer for big men to reach their potential, JV is 24 and isn't in his prime yet and people are already on his case.
                        This isn't actually true. Wages of Wins did a report on this a few years ago and bigs don't take longer to develop. Raw bigs do who come in with very little skills, yes, but Jonas isn't in that category.

                        Comment


                        • Lupe wrote: View Post
                          DeRozan is an aberration and quite frankly the patience with him was only justified because we weren't any good and weren't approaching being a title contender. He would've needed to go or be relegated to a bench role if he was taking that long to develop on a team with aspiration to contend. On top of that, it is really rare for players to make the kind of leap he did in his 5th season and then have another significant leap in their 8th season.



                          This isn't actually true. Wages of Wins did a report on this a few years ago and bigs don't take longer to develop. Raw bigs do who come in with very little skills, yes, but Jonas isn't in that category.
                          I didn't see it, but Wages of Wins relies on the WP metric, which heavily over-estimates the value of rebounds. So any big with half decent rebounding will look very good much earlier in WP than in basically any other metric. There's a chance that was a factor in that conclusion.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

                          Comment


                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            I didn't see it, but Wages of Wins relies on the WP metric, which heavily over-estimates the value of rebounds. So any big with half decent rebounding will look very good much earlier in WP than in basically any other metric. There's a chance that was a factor in that conclusion.
                            They didn't use that in the study. And it makes sense anyway. The reason people think that bigmen take longer to develop is simply because teams are more willing to draft a player who is very raw and unskilled at 7'0 than at 6'0. You can't teach size, but you can teach basketball skills (to a certain extent). Also kids in America who grow up that big tend to not have to work on their skillset as much as smaller players to progress to the next level, since their size allows them to dominate to such an extent.

                            Jonas does not fall into this category because he came in with a fair amount of polish in terms of his shooting mechanics, footwork and fundamentals. It's not like he had to be taught those things when he came into the league, just worked on refining them. So I don't buy into this whole "bigs take longer to develop" excuse for him.

                            Comment


                            • Lupe wrote: View Post
                              They didn't use that in the study. And it makes sense anyway. The reason people think that bigmen take longer to develop is simply because teams are more willing to draft a player who is very raw and unskilled at 7'0 than at 6'0. You can't teach size, but you can teach basketball skills (to a certain extent). Also kids in America who grow up that big tend to not have to work on their skillset as much as smaller players to progress to the next level, since their size allows them to dominate to such an extent.

                              Jonas does not fall into this category because he came in with a fair amount of polish in terms of his shooting mechanics, footwork and fundamentals. It's not like he had to be taught those things when he came into the league, just worked on refining them. So I don't buy into this whole "bigs take longer to develop" excuse for him.
                              Some of this stuff...footwork? Jonas had zero post game coming into the league. None at all. He had no footwork. Shooting mechanics were solid and he has decent fundamentals all around, but again he had no low post game whatsoever...if he caught it deep he's a good finisher so he could finish around the rim...but I can't stress enough that there was absolutely no polish to his non-existent post game.

                              Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

                              Comment


                              • Lupe wrote: View Post
                                They didn't use that in the study. And it makes sense anyway. The reason people think that bigmen take longer to develop is simply because teams are more willing to draft a player who is very raw and unskilled at 7'0 than at 6'0. You can't teach size, but you can teach basketball skills (to a certain extent). Also kids in America who grow up that big tend to not have to work on their skillset as much as smaller players to progress to the next level, since their size allows them to dominate to such an extent.

                                Jonas does not fall into this category because he came in with a fair amount of polish in terms of his shooting mechanics, footwork and fundamentals. It's not like he had to be taught those things when he came into the league, just worked on refining them. So I don't buy into this whole "bigs take longer to develop" excuse for him.
                                I thought the argument was always that bigs have to be more cerebral as they play a big team defence role, more so than wings and guards who skew more to individual defence, and to master the team defence side of things requires a lot of experience learning timing and where to be. Hence the longer development time for bigs.
                                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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