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  • DanH wrote: View Post
    I thought the argument was always that bigs have to be more cerebral as they play a big team defence role, more so than wings and guards who skew more to individual defence, and to master the team defence side of things requires a lot of experience learning timing and where to be. Hence the longer development time for bigs.
    So are we acknowledging now that defense is more important for bigs because they have a larger role on that end than wings and guards? Because earlier people were acting like DeMar being bad on defense is just as big of a problem as JV being bad on that end.

    Can't have it both ways. You can't say that it takes bigs longer to develop defensively because they have more responsibility than guards, but then turn around and suggest that a bad defensive wing is as big of a liability as the same thing at center.

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    • Lupe wrote: View Post
      So are we acknowledging now that defense is more important for bigs because they have a larger role on that end than wings and guards? Because earlier people were acting like DeMar being bad on defense is just as big of a problem as JV being bad on that end.

      Can't have it both ways. You can't say that it takes bigs longer to develop defensively because they have more responsibility than guards, but then turn around and suggest that a bad defensive wing is as big of a liability as the same thing at center.
      No, I'm saying defence is harder for bigs and takes longer to learn. More of their job is related to rotations than guards (obviously both sets of players have to deal with both individual and team defence, just to different degrees). And no, your defence can be ravaged just as much by a weak individual wing defender as by a weak help defender. Ultimately either can be hidden pretty successfully with the right scheme and teammates.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • DanH wrote: View Post
        No, I'm saying defence is harder for bigs and takes longer to learn. More of their job is related to rotations than guards (obviously both sets of players have to deal with both individual and team defence, just to different degrees). And no, your defence can be ravaged just as much by a weak individual wing defender as by a weak help defender. Ultimately either can be hidden pretty successfully with the right scheme and teammates.
        Alright then I don't really think we can move much further on either point. I'll agree to disagree.

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        • DanH wrote: View Post
          No, I'm saying defence is harder for bigs and takes longer to learn. More of their job is related to rotations than guards (obviously both sets of players have to deal with both individual and team defence, just to different degrees). And no, your defence can be ravaged just as much by a weak individual wing defender as by a weak help defender. Ultimately either can be hidden pretty successfully with the right scheme and teammates.
          To add on to that, JV is at least familiar with what Casey wants. Any big being brought in would have a significant learning curve.

          Defence has always started at the point of attack; on-ball defence has to be better to allow help rotations the time to get there. When you have Jose-esque defence on ball, you end up playing 4-on-5 defence.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • Axel wrote: View Post
            To add on to that, JV is at least familiar with what Casey wants. Any big being brought in would have a significant learning curve.

            Defence has always started at the point of attack; on-ball defence has to be better to allow help rotations the time to get there. When you have Jose-esque defence on ball, you end up playing 4-on-5 defence.
            The fact that he's familiar with what Casey wants should be a warning sign considering that Casey consistently yanks him for apparently not doing it. 5 years of continuity with the same coach, playing starters minutes and he still can't do what he needs. Over 8000 minutes under the same guy.

            What's also a bit troubling with JV is that this year he's taken a step back. Lowest TS% in 3 years. Highest dRTG of his career, lowest PER and win shares per 48 in 3 years. Hasn't made any progression as a passer (his highest AST%, 5.0% was in his rookie year) or with his willingness to shoot from outside (although he has become more willing to take 10-16 footers). Finishing in the paint has dropped off a cliff this year also going from 65% last year and on his career to 56% this year which isn't very good for a big (especially one who supposedly doesn't get enough touches in the post where he has to take higher difficulty inside shots in isolation situations).

            Defensively, very little progress made since year 2, has arguably gotten worse due to getting slower.
            Last edited by Lupe; Sat Jan 14th, 2017, 03:41 PM.

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            • Lupe wrote: View Post
              The fact that he's familiar with what Casey wants should be a warning sign considering that Casey consistently yanks him for apparently not doing it. 5 years of continuity with the same coach, playing starters minutes and he still can't do what he needs. Over 8000 minutes under the same guy.

              What's also a bit troubling with JV is that this year he's taken a step back. Lowest TS% in 3 years. Highest dRTG of his career, lowest PER and win shares per 48 in 3 years. Hasn't made any progression as a passer (his highest AST%, 5.0% was in his rookie year) or with his willingness to shoot from outside (although he has become more willing to take 10-16 footers). Finishing in the paint has dropped off a cliff this year also going from 65% last year and on his career to 56% this year which isn't very good for a big (especially one who supposedly doesn't get enough touches in the post where he has to take higher difficulty inside shots in isolation situations).

              Defensively, very little progress made since year 2, has arguably gotten worse due to getting slower.
              What Casey wants with jv has changed with the defensive system which has been different in each of the last three years. I'm gonna reserve my judgement on how well jv fits here until at least after all our major rotation guys are back and healthy.

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              • Lupe wrote: View Post
                The fact that he's familiar with what Casey wants should be a warning sign considering that Casey consistently yanks him for apparently not doing it. 5 years of continuity with the same coach, playing starters minutes and he still can't do what he needs. Over 8000 minutes under the same guy.

                What's also a bit troubling with JV is that this year he's taken a step back. Lowest TS% in 3 years. Highest dRTG of his career, lowest PER and win shares per 48 in 3 years. Hasn't made any progression as a passer (his highest AST%, 5.0% was in his rookie year) or with his willingness to shoot from outside (although he has become more willing to take 10-16 footers). Finishing in the paint has dropped off a cliff this year also going from 65% last year and on his career to 56% this year which isn't very good for a big (especially one who supposedly doesn't get enough touches in the post where he has to take higher difficulty inside shots in isolation situations).

                Defensively, very little progress made since year 2, has arguably gotten worse due to getting slower.
                Not necessarily. JV looked much better in the Greer lead defence than any other version we've had under Casey.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                • Axel wrote: View Post
                  Not necessarily. JV looked much better in the Greer lead defence than any other version we've had under Casey.
                  Not really. The whole team looked better defensively because CoJo was playing better defense than he is this year and we had PPat-Biyombo off the bench who had a 98.7 dRTG together. This directly affected the DeRozan+Bench lineup which, while not stellar offensively was a net positive and one of our better lineups because it was elite on the defensive side of the floor. The better defense last year didn't really have much to do with JV at all.

                  Greer has taken "his" defense to Minnesota with Thibodeau and they are right near the bottom of the league defensively. Our dropoff in defense has more to do with personnel than it does to changes in our system.

                  JV's own dropoff from last year is probably a combination of Scola being better defensively than Siakam (both are bad, but Scola is at least experienced) and the league trending even further in the direction of spread pick and roll offense, exposing a player like JV more on that end.

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                  • Lupe wrote: View Post
                    Not really. The whole team looked better defensively because CoJo was playing better defense than he is this year and we had PPat-Biyombo off the bench who had a 98.7 dRTG together. This directly affected the DeRozan+Bench lineup which, while not stellar offensively was a net positive and one of our better lineups because it was elite on the defensive side of the floor. The better defense last year didn't really have much to do with JV at all.

                    Greer has taken "his" defense to Minnesota with Thibodeau and they are right near the bottom of the league defensively. Our dropoff in defense has more to do with personnel than it does to changes in our system.

                    JV's own dropoff from last year is probably a combination of Scola being better defensively than Siakam (both are bad, but Scola is at least experienced) and the league trending even further in the direction of spread pick and roll offense, exposing a player like JV more on that end.
                    i'm confused. first the issue is "JV's taken a step back, highest dRTG of his career, etc", but then the issue is Scola vs. Siakam and the league as a whole. which is it, exactly?

                    Anyway, JV can play effective enough defence in this league. he hasn't been doing it consistently enough this season for our liking but he has the capability.

                    General note, I like how you're saying Greer's systems had no effect while also lamenting how our guys like Cory are playing markedly worse defence this season vs. last season with no other offered. explanation.

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                    • Lupe wrote: View Post
                      Not really. The whole team looked better defensively because CoJo was playing better defense than he is this year and we had PPat-Biyombo off the bench who had a 98.7 dRTG together. This directly affected the DeRozan+Bench lineup which, while not stellar offensively was a net positive and one of our better lineups because it was elite on the defensive side of the floor. The better defense last year didn't really have much to do with JV at all.

                      Greer has taken "his" defense to Minnesota with Thibodeau and they are right near the bottom of the league defensively. Our dropoff in defense has more to do with personnel than it does to changes in our system.

                      JV's own dropoff from last year is probably a combination of Scola being better defensively than Siakam (both are bad, but Scola is at least experienced) and the league trending even further in the direction of spread pick and roll offense, exposing a player like JV more on that end.
                      Yes really. That system played to his strengths and he looked more comfortable and effective in it. You don't need to look at DRtg stats of a PPatt & Biyombo pairing to know that, all it took was watching the games and seeing it. You're trying to make the counter argument to "JV made the defence better" which nobody said. The comment was "JV was better in the Greer system" - arguing about other players impacts, especially players who wouldn't have played much with JV, is completely pointless.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • Axel wrote: View Post
                        Yes really. That system played to his strengths and he looked more comfortable and effective in it. You don't need to look at DRtg stats of a PPatt & Biyombo pairing to know that, all it took was watching the games and seeing it. You're trying to make the counter argument to "JV made the defence better" which nobody said. The comment was "JV was better in the Greer system" - arguing about other players impacts, especially players who wouldn't have played much with JV, is completely pointless.
                        I don't think JV's defense was better at all. He was still getting taken off the court late in games when Casey made offense-defense subs with Biz. And those subs did make sense because JV was much better offensively but Biz was way better on the defensive end.

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                        • Lupe wrote: View Post
                          I don't think JV's defense was better at all. He was still getting taken off the court late in games when Casey made offense-defense subs with Biz. And those subs did make sense because JV was much better offensively but Biz was way better on the defensive end.
                          well, you can think what you like, but you'd be wrong. I would say both subjectively (by eye) and objectively (by statistics) so, if you're talking about "JV's Defence" in the context of "JV's performance within the system that was in place".

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                          • Look, I think both sides of this are correct, but also wrong. I come at this as a jv fan, but mostly just any player drafted and developed by us fan:

                            Jv is not a good defender. That said, he's not a horrible one either. He has his strengths: good rebounder, good post defense, good at stopping straight line drives into the paint and very solid making "the first stop". He is also slow footed, slow to react and a pylon when out in the open against a small.

                            But what the also is, is a great offensive rebounder, great post player, good midrange shooter, great screener, and has charmin soft hands, just smooth hands even with awkward legs lol.

                            Put all that together, at age 24 (and yes euro bigs do peak later) and there's no reason you can't build a champion with him starting and finishing games at the 5. AND yes part if it is on him, and part of it is on the team. So again youre both right.
                            It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                            • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                              Look, I think both sides of this are correct, but also wrong. I come at this as a jv fan, but mostly just any player drafted and developed by us fan:

                              Jv is not a good defender. That said, he's not a horrible one either. He has his strengths: good rebounder, good post defense, good at stopping straight line drives into the paint and very solid making "the first stop". He is also slow footed, slow to react and a pylon when out in the open against a small.

                              But what the also is, is a great offensive rebounder, great post player, good midrange shooter, great screener, and has charmin soft hands, just smooth hands even with awkward legs lol.

                              Put all that together, at age 24 (and yes euro bigs do peak later) and there's no reason you can't build a champion with him starting and finishing games at the 5. AND yes part if it is on him, and part of it is on the team. So again youre both right.
                              The problem is he can't finish all games at the 5.

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                              • Lupe wrote: View Post
                                The problem is he can't finish all games at the 5.
                                Carroll/JV and a Patterson/JV frountcourt both worked well in closing situations last season. So yeah he "can" finish all games there (unless he's playing terribly for some reason, then you bench him).

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