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  • Scraptor wrote: View Post
    This is like wishing Rudy Gay would magically become LeBron James. Or hoping DeMar would be Harden. They're just not comparable at all except maybe for size and position.

    And even if Jonas had that kind of court vision and handles (which he doesn't), it would take years before Casey trusted him enough to create out of the high post.
    But if you look at the videos, most of the passing plays are with Jokic hitting cutters. The Raps don't run a lot of cutters under Casey. Never have and never will. That's a high turnover situation, so there really is/was no opportunity to even develop that. The Raps offense is all about dribble-drive-attack from the perimeter and limiting turnovers. And even when JV gets post-ups, everybody mostly clears out, so there aren't even opportunities for resets. It's pretty much an ISO.

    Scola is/was actually a good passer out of the post and a high IQ player. His career AST% was almost 12% before he joined the Raps, but dropped to 6% under Casey, and now is right back up to 11.2%. So, this is an example of the Raps "role players" having to play different roles (stretch 4 for Scola), in order to complement Lowry and Derozan's strengths and weaknesses. Scola talked about this a few times in the media. Biz mentioned it, and Sully just talked about how he was getting advice from Carroll on how to "best fit in" with Kyle and DeMar. Apparently the plan is for Sully to also become a stretch 4, so that takes away one of his biggest strengths, which is offensive rebounding, but also gives him an opportunity to showcase a new skill. So, even if we bring in Arvydas Sabonis in his prime, we're not going to run cutters for him. Spurs have their system. We have ours and it doesn't involve big men passing.

    The entire Raps offense is geared around optimizing Lowry & DD, with minimal passing, and the other players just have to accept that. IMO, this is the true skill of Dwane Casey. Getting all those "other guys" to sacrifice their careers to make Lowry & DD look good. As long as the Raps are winning and the role players feel like they are getting compensated fairly, then everybody's happy.

    Comment


    • special1 wrote: View Post
      This is so one sided.....unfair to say that they don't at least try this in practice..... Maybe they do try and JV throws it away more often than not.

      Casey's Job is to try to win games. If having the ball move through Kyle and Demar is allowing him to keep his job, i don't think i blame him.

      Look.....Coaches and GM's lose their jobs trying to push certain players into roles. Its nothing new.....Remember Bargnani who Bryan tried to turn into Dirk Nowitzi?

      Thanks for your suggestions, but a player's skill set carves out his role. You have no idea what happens behind the scenes. Look at Bebe.....He's known to be a good passer....do you think we run plays for him or does it come natural to him?
      You don't have any more idea what they do and don't try in practice than I do. it's one-sided and unfair how exactly?

      Here's what i know: almost every player who has come and gone has seen a major drop in their assist rate during their time here. Do you think that's because they all miraculously got better at it when they left or because there's maybe a systemic cause?

      Comment


      • golden wrote: View Post
        But if you look at the videos, most of the passing plays are with Jokic hitting cutters. The Raps don't run a lot of cutters under Casey. Never have and never will. That's a high turnover situation, so there really is/was no opportunity to even develop that. The Raps offense is all about dribble-drive-attack from the perimeter and limiting turnovers. And even when JV gets post-ups, everybody mostly clears out, so there aren't even opportunities for resets. It's pretty much an ISO.

        Scola is/was actually a good passer out of the post and a high IQ player. His career AST% was almost 12% before he joined the Raps, but dropped to 6% under Casey, and now is right back up to 11.2%. So, this is an example of the Raps "role players" having to play different roles (stretch 4 for Scola), in order to complement Lowry and Derozan's strengths and weaknesses. Scola talked about this a few times in the media. Biz mentioned it, and Sully just talked about how he was getting advice from Carroll on how to "best fit in" with Kyle and DeMar. Apparently the plan is for Sully to also become a stretch 4, so that takes away one of his biggest strengths, which is offensive rebounding, but also gives him an opportunity to showcase a new skill. So, even if we bring in Arvydas Sabonis in his prime, we're not going to run cutters for him. Spurs have their system. We have ours and it doesn't involve big men passing.

        The entire Raps offense is geared around optimizing Lowry & DD, with minimal passing, and the other players just have to accept that. IMO, this is the true skill of Dwane Casey. Getting all those "other guys" to sacrifice their careers to make Lowry & DD look good. As long as the Raps are winning and the role players feel like they are getting compensated fairly, then everybody's happy.
        While I agree with you in general, I'm not sure I've ever seen Jonas hit a cutter out of the high post in a face-up situation like Jokic did.

        Though that doesn't mean it's not possible, I think it's not something he has a natural facility for. In their last years before coming to the NBA, Jokic had about 3x as many assists as Jonas per 40 minutes per DX. The ability was always there with Jokic.

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        • golden wrote: View Post
          But if you look at the videos, most of the passing plays are with Jokic hitting cutters. The Raps don't run a lot of cutters under Casey. Never have and never will. That's a high turnover situation, so there really is/was no opportunity to even develop that. The Raps offense is all about dribble-drive-attack from the perimeter and limiting turnovers. And even when JV gets post-ups, everybody mostly clears out, so there aren't even opportunities for resets. It's pretty much an ISO.

          Scola is/was actually a good passer out of the post and a high IQ player. His career AST% was almost 12% before he joined the Raps, but dropped to 6% under Casey, and now is right back up to 11.2%. So, this is an example of the Raps "role players" having to play different roles (stretch 4 for Scola), in order to complement Lowry and Derozan's strengths and weaknesses. Scola talked about this a few times in the media. Biz mentioned it, and Sully just talked about how he was getting advice from Carroll on how to "best fit in" with Kyle and DeMar. Apparently the plan is for Sully to also become a stretch 4, so that takes away one of his biggest strengths, which is offensive rebounding, but also gives him an opportunity to showcase a new skill. So, even if we bring in Arvydas Sabonis in his prime, we're not going to run cutters for him. Spurs have their system. We have ours and it doesn't involve big men passing.

          The entire Raps offense is geared around optimizing Lowry & DD, with minimal passing, and the other players just have to accept that. IMO, this is the true skill of Dwane Casey. Getting all those "other guys" to sacrifice their careers to make Lowry & DD look good. As long as the Raps are winning and the role players feel like they are getting compensated fairly, then everybody's happy.
          I get the observation....But sometimes i'm confused by your point. Are you saying that we should run less plays for Demar and Kyle and run more for our role players? Do you really think that would make us a better team?

          I never understood this narrative that we only use our stars and should go away from them more......This makes no sense to me. Who cares about Scola's AST%? By the end of the season, everyone around here wanted him to play like 0-10 mins tops.

          I totally disagree with this "hey lets make JV a playmaker.....he can totally do it." I also disagree that when people say "if Marc Gasol/Arvydas Sabonis came here, we wouldn't be running plays through him because we have Demar and Kyle." It's about personnel! Passing is a skill and some players are just better at it (for example Bebe/Sully) they will find people that others won't be able to, under the same pressure.

          The Raptors offense is like this because of the personnel they have. Who are the great passers on the team that we know you can run the offense through?

          Comment


          • KHD wrote: View Post
            You don't have any more idea what they do and don't try in practice than I do. it's one-sided and unfair how exactly?

            Here's what i know: almost every player who has come and gone has seen a major drop in their assist rate during their time here. Do you think that's because they all miraculously got better at it when they left or because there's maybe a systemic cause?
            I'm of the belief that we are better with the ball in the hands of Kyle and Demar (our all-stars and clear cut best players)... I take it you disagree?

            Is there any evidence that coach bud's system is better than ours? We beat them almost every time. The results may not be as pleasing to the eye as some people seem to want, but you can't argue that it's not working......cue the "let's see in the playoffs".....and in turn i will say.... Let's see.

            P.S.

            In response to your "why don't they have JV post up, and also send appropriate cutters" comment.....

            I said you don't know if they try to do this in practice. Maybe they do and JV throws it away more often than not. Maybe they decided that its best for him to attack his defender and get a high percentage shot instead of missing a cutter and creating a turnover. We all know that we try to limit turnovers at all cost.
            Last edited by special1; Tue Jan 17th, 2017, 11:38 AM.

            Comment


            • I've seen bebe and poeltl make some gorgeous passes so far this yr (in limited mins) that I've never seen jv make in his career. Casey didn't draw all those passes up, it happened in the flow of the game bc those guys have the vision and ability to complete it. However, jv can rebound and bebe has struggled there. That's not hating on either guy, it's a critique. Is Zach Lowe a hater for questioning jvs fit on the team?
              I think the truth might be somewhere between the pro and con jv camps here. Either way, I think criticality and free speech are essential to informative debate. I'd like to hear both sides please.

              Comment


              • lewro wrote: View Post
                I've seen bebe and poeltl make some gorgeous passes so far this yr (in limited mins) that I've never seen jv make in his career. Casey didn't draw all those passes up, it happened in the flow of the game bc those guys have the vision and ability to complete it. However, jv can rebound and bebe has struggled there. That's not hating on either guy, it's a critique. Is Zach Lowe a hater for questioning jvs fit on the team?
                I think the truth might be somewhere between the pro and con jv camps here. Either way, I think criticality and free speech are essential to informative debate. I'd like to hear both sides please.
                There is a bit of a difference. Neither Bebe or Poeltl are used as post scorers, so there is more movement. JV is a post scorer, and I've seen countless times where he posts up, gets the ball and his teammates just stand there and watch him attempt to score or kick it back out, no off ball movement whatsoever.

                Comment


                • special1 wrote: View Post
                  I get the observation....But sometimes i'm confused by your point. Are you saying that we should run less plays for Demar and Kyle and run more for our role players? Do you really think that would make us a better team?

                  I never understood this narrative that we only use our stars and should go away from them more......This makes no sense to me. Who cares about Scola's AST%? By the end of the season, everyone around here wanted him to play like 0-10 mins tops.

                  I totally disagree with this "hey lets make JV a playmaker.....he can totally do it." I also disagree that when people say "if Marc Gasol/Arvydas Sabonis came here, we wouldn't be running plays through him because we have Demar and Kyle." It's about personnel! Passing is a skill and some players are just better at it (for example Bebe/Sully) they will find people that others won't be able to, under the same pressure.

                  The Raptors offense is like this because of the personnel they have. Who are the great passers on the team that we know you can run the offense through?
                  I disagree with the bold, and I think there is ample evidence to support the claim that Casey runs a two-headed monster system, regardless of the personnel. Casey needs to surround those monsters with a rebounding defensive anchor, a stretch-4, and a 3&D wing. When the bench brigade comes in, or even when one of those monsters is injured, Casey still runs the same system with the same players/positions playing the same role. All of MU's acquisitions over the past few seasons also support this observation.

                  Lowry and DeRozan are the monsters for the Casey/Lowry/DeRozan core. Period. End of story.

                  JV, Bebe, Biyombo, Chuck Hayes, etc... have been used as the rebounding, shot blocking C.

                  Patterson, Sullinger, Scola, etc... have been used as the stretch-4 (makes sense why the Siakam lineups were a complete disaster)

                  Carroll, Ross, Powell, Bruno, Gay, etc... have all been used as the 3&D wing.


                  The key point that so many posters are making in this thread and have made over the past few seasons, is that whether we're talking about JV, Gay, Ross, Joseph, Scola, Vasquez, etc... the story is the same. Every player aside from Lowry and DeRozan are forced to play a specific role, and the system (offense & defense) does not take their natural strengths/weaknesses into consideration.

                  Scola is not a stretch-4, but was forced to play that role on the Raptors.

                  Powell and Bruno are slashers, not traditional 3&D wings, but they're being forced to play that role on the Raptors.

                  Ross is a 3&D wing, but when DeRozan has been injured, he's been forced to play DeRozan's game on the Raptors.

                  Joseph and Vasquez are pass-first distributors, but they've been asked to replicate Lowry's style of play on the Raptors.

                  JV can be a dominant offensive force inside and is a capable man defender, but he's used as an afterthought offensively and forced to be a help defender to offset the porous perimeter defense of Lowry & DeRozan (it's no surprise he looked much better in Greer's defensive system last season, that took his natural strengths into consideration).


                  So much of the frustration that posters have about just about any Raptors player ultimately comes back to Casey. It comes down to role, usage and opportunity.
                  Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jan 17th, 2017, 11:52 AM.

                  Comment


                  • JV just had a great passing game against the Knicks and we're still saying he "can't pass". Lol

                    If you're not watching him play without bias then there's no point sparking debate for the sake of it.

                    Comment


                    • special1 wrote: View Post
                      I'm of the belief that we are better with the ball in the hands of Kyle and Demar (our all-stars and clear cut best players)... I take it you disagree?

                      Is there any evidence that coach bud's system is better than ours? We beat them almost every time. The results may not be as pleasing to the eye as some people seem to want, but you can't argue that it's not working......cue the "let's see in the playoffs".....and in turn i will say.... Let's see.

                      P.S.

                      In response to your "why don't they have JV post up, and also send appropriate cutters" comment.....

                      I said you don't know if they try to do this in practice. Maybe they do and JV throws it away more often than not. Maybe they decided that its best for him to attack his defender and get a high percentage shot instead of missing a cutter and creating a turnover. We all know that we try to limit turnovers at all cost.
                      I fully agree with the ball in the hands of the best players, philosophy. But Kyle and DeMar aren't at the same level as Durant and Westbrook. They've been maxed out and when the opposition can game-plan for them, the results aren't pretty. So, I believe that one way to get to the next level is to develop the games of the role players. But to do that, you must also start to put the role players in the best positions for them to also succeed. Not always being Lowry & DD's caddy. This season, I am seeing signs of this - particularly more Ross catch & shoots as a first option. We just saw Lowry hit Carroll as a cutter multiple times as a first option. Even JV hit him. This is progress.

                      So there's no disconnect here, spec, I'd just like to see more utilization of the role players strengths, as painful as it might be to go through it. This is the same pain we experienced watching DeMar grow up, but it helped us get to this level. I feel like we need to do the same with the role players, because Kyle and DeMar just aren't good enough to carry us (cue: the playoffs) like elite superstars with their scoring alone. They can still dominate the ball, like Harden, but become less predictable if "role players" numbers are called a bit more often to mix it up.

                      Comment


                      • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                        While I agree with you in general, I'm not sure I've ever seen Jonas hit a cutter out of the high post in a face-up situation like Jokic did.

                        Though that doesn't mean it's not possible, I think it's not something he has a natural facility for. In their last years before coming to the NBA, Jokic had about 3x as many assists as Jonas per 40 minutes per DX. The ability was always there with Jokic.
                        I'd also mostly agree that JV lacks the overall BBIQ, but you have to be careful about definitive nature/nurture conclusions here based on pre-NBA.

                        Take a guy like Jared Sullinger, who averaged only 1.6 AST per 40 in college - same as JV in Euroleague (a higher level of competition, btw). He jumped all the way to 3.9 AST per 40, mainly because he was forced to do that under Brad Stevens ball movement system. There was no indication of that passing skill. Same thing with Serge Ibaka becoming a shooter. Yes, these are exceptions.
                        Last edited by golden; Tue Jan 17th, 2017, 12:08 PM.

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                        • Jv can pass when Greer was the assistant coach, pre-injuries, in the playoffs, when he was a rookie, on Drake & huskies night, vs traditional/post- up bigs (s&h not incl.).😝

                          Comment


                          • "While not the most prolific passer at this stage, Sullinger shows good vision passing out of double teams, turns the ball over at an extremely low rate and rarely forces up bad shots...". From DX. The article also talks about his ability to move without the ball, bbiq and touch/hands.
                            Sully was one of the most prolific scorers in NCAA. His stock dropped a lot bc of injury. He was expected to shoot, not pass but he still showed the propensity to pass.

                            Comment


                            • 2 pages talking about jv never passes...if I got 4 looks a game, I wouldn't pass either. Then he'd he averaging 8 pts a game and the haters would call him a scrub on both ends of the floor
                              It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

                              Comment


                              • lewro wrote: View Post
                                "While not the most prolific passer at this stage, Sullinger shows good vision passing out of double teams, turns the ball over at an extremely low rate and rarely forces up bad shots...". From DX. The article also talks about his ability to move without the ball, bbiq and touch/hands.
                                Sully was one of the most prolific scorers in NCAA. His stock dropped a lot bc of injury. He was expected to shoot, not pass but he still showed the propensity to pass.
                                Yep. I gotta take a mulligan on that post. lol. Using Sullinger, who is very high IQ player, is probably not the best comp for JV.

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