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  • Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    Seriously, the board goes from hypothesizing that if Cousins ever becomes available, most would agree to flip JV+ for him.

    Guess what? Masai offered JV+ when Cousins became available. And now the board takes this as some sort of evidence that JV is considered expendable.
    This is hardly an idea that has been proposed just over the last couple weeks. We've been talking about this for over two years.

    It's just that now, for the first time, Jonas has been linked to trade talks, and the media is starting to lay the soft sell down for if and when it happens.

    Doesn't mean we have to make a move for the sake of making a move. I love JV and my first choice has been to fire Casey for a long time. But what I want to happen and what is happening, objectively, are two different things. Jonas is being benched in his fifth season, most recently for a rookie. He hasn't cracked 27 mpg in three seasons or 9.5 field goal attempts per game.

    And now we just brought in a guy who will play to every Casey smallball stereotype, which is going to marginalize JV even more.

    So if we can get trade value for him, we should go for it, which is what Masai seems to be doing. I disagree with Arthur when he says the return doesn't matter. It does. But it seems clear that JV is on the fringe of the core, and that he is no longer considered untouchable as he was before.
    It’s Ogugua season. Time to gugua.

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      Why again, when we finally have a viable PF rotation, are we abandoning the only functional starting quality C we've had since... what, Antonio Davis?

      The fanbase has targeted Ibaka or an Ibaka-like PF for years as an ideal fit next to JV. Why on earth would acquiring him lead anyone to conclude the Raptors want to move on from him? If you can upgrade from JV to a guy like Cousins, sure, why wouldn't you. But that doesn't mean the team is looking to get rid of him.

      Carroll might need to go because of the numbers crunch, and CoJo has taken a big step back and has two young guys on his heels, so he's probably moving on at some point. But dealing JV to save cash seems like creating a hole for no real reason.
      Well AD was a 4 in Indy that we used as a 4/5 here. ibaka might be as well.

      No one can be certain that A or B has to go before they've played one game. We know masai is gonna evaluate awhile and weigh all the options. JV is just one of those options. It seems masai is just following due diligence on all options. That's his job.
      Media is speculating on it so members are talking about it.

      Comment


      • DanH wrote: View Post
        Why again, when we finally have a viable PF rotation, are we abandoning the only functional starting quality C we've had since... what, Antonio Davis?

        The fanbase has targeted Ibaka or an Ibaka-like PF for years as an ideal fit next to JV. Why on earth would acquiring him lead anyone to conclude the Raptors want to move on from him? If you can upgrade from JV to a guy like Cousins, sure, why wouldn't you. But that doesn't mean the team is looking to get rid of him.

        Carroll might need to go because of the numbers crunch, and CoJo has taken a big step back and has two young guys on his heels, so he's probably moving on at some point. But dealing JV to save cash seems like creating a hole for no real reason.
        In an ideal world you keep JV.

        However the CBA makes that extremely costly.

        So why is JV shipped?

        1) money
        2) style of play Casey and team wants is the anti-JV
        3) given style of play there are 2 Cs that can fill the role
        4) 5 years in and Casey still doesn't trust him
        5) still 2 years left on his deal after this one and his trade value will likely peak this summer.


        By the way, I'm a big JV fan but objectively analyzing the writing is in the wall.

        Comment


        • DanH wrote: View Post
          Why again, when we finally have a viable PF rotation, are we abandoning the only functional starting quality C we've had since... what, Antonio Davis?

          The fanbase has targeted Ibaka or an Ibaka-like PF for years as an ideal fit next to JV. Why on earth would acquiring him lead anyone to conclude the Raptors want to move on from him? If you can upgrade from JV to a guy like Cousins, sure, why wouldn't you. But that doesn't mean the team is looking to get rid of him.

          Carroll might need to go because of the numbers crunch, and CoJo has taken a big step back and has two young guys on his heels, so he's probably moving on at some point. But dealing JV to save cash seems like creating a hole for no real reason.
          It's not so much of a want to move on from JV... it's just my opinion that it's going to happen. Partially because if resigning Ibaka is in the cards then there will have to be salary cut and JV seems to be the most obvious choice (he's a much more valuable trade asset than Carroll who I'd think is close to untradeable at this point unless your stapling assets to him on the way out of the door) and partially because he's plateaued development wise and still doesn't have the trust of the team in year 5.

          I'm not trying to turn it into an indictment of JV - like another poster said, the writing is simply on the wall. And if a deal is imminent for Jonas than I want Masai to max out the return (even if that means moving him today).

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          • Fully wrote: View Post
            It's not so much of a want to move on from JV... it's just my opinion that it's going to happen. Partially because if resigning Ibaka is in the cards then there will have to be salary cut and JV seems to be the most obvious choice (he's a much more valuable trade asset than Carroll who I'd think is close to untradeable at this point unless your stapling assets to him on the way out of the door) and partially because he's plateaued development wise and still doesn't have the trust of the team in year 5.

            I'm not trying to turn it into an indictment of JV - like another poster said, the writing is simply on the wall. And if a deal is imminent for Jonas than I want Masai to max out the return (even if that means moving him today).
            Here's the thing. If you are re-signing Ibaka, you are doing so to win, now. Moving JV and relying on BeBe/Poeltl, or forcing Ibaka to play out of position for basically all of his minutes, will hurt your chances of winning, substantially. It doesn't make any sense to move JV unless you are getting a quality C back - so, maybe you think Drummond fits better stylistically (I don't), and maybe you have a chance at Cousins, sure, but downgrading significantly at C is unlikely - but it's almost a certain outcome if you trade JV, as the return would more likely be a wing player or guard or significant downgrade in talent (as JV's play style is not en vogue right now, his trade value is certainly less than his value on the court).
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • GLF wrote: View Post
              LOL people on here are crazy. Sometimes it seems like they just want to make trades just for the sake of it. But Dan I have a question for you. How do you think Ibaka and Jonas will fit together? Because Zach Lowe made a good point about Ibaka and Nikola not fitting well together and he and JV have very similar skill sets. Lowe doesn't think big slow offensive C's fit well alongside more mobile athletic PF's because it causes the better defender (the PF) to be stuck on the perimeter and negates their rim protection. What are your thoughts? Do you see Ibaka fitting nicely alongside JV? And why do you think it didn't work well with Nikola defensively but will with JV?
              Ibaka has seen his rim protection drop off in the last few years - mostly because he's been asked to defend on the perimeter more. Which makes sense, the way the game is evolving, most PF's have some stretch in their game. But that doesn't mean he's been a less effective defender.

              I'm not sure what Lowe is talking about with that comparison. Of all the players Ibaka was paired with in ORL, his on-court DRTG was second-best with Vucevic, about 105. While with Biyombo, presumably a better defensive option (a big who can guard on the perimeter a bit, allowing Ibaka to take some rim protection duties), he had his 2nd worst on-court DRTG, about 112. That's a radical difference, and paints basically the opposite picture of Lowe's sentiments.

              I suspect he'll work fantastically with the Raptors. One of the things Patterson is credited with most is communication defensively (also something Biyombo was credited with last year) and Ibaka is a vocal defender who should help corral the starting unit defence even if he's operating from a secondary help position. He's also developed into a smart rotational defender (if not always smart when guarding man to man) rather than a pure shot blocker - much like Patterson, who has been the key to the Raptors' best defensive lineups this season.

              Try to remember, that starting lineup is weak because of basically one player. The upgrade from Siakam to Ibaka is unfathomable. Putting BeBe out there (a player who presumably has his greatest value as a shot blocker and is dragged away from the rim by having to guard on the perimeter in the starting unit, exactly the concern with Ibaka) gives that lineup an incredibly good defensive rating (98.9, by far the best of any lineup on the team with over 50 minutes played this year, in 108 minutes). Not sure why we'd expect Ibaka, who is more mobile and more experienced than BeBe, and a 3 time all NBA defender, to have little impact when replacing a rookie PF who doesn't know where to be on roughly every single play.

              Long story short, besides getting a star like Millsap, Ibaka might be the theoretical best fit beside JV in the entire league.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

              Comment


              • I actually wrote a whole piece outlining my thoughts on Ibaka fitting here. I don't like to spam my stuff, but it seems very much on topic in this thread....

                http://www.raptorshq.com/2017/2/21/1...d-numbers-game
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • GLF wrote: View Post
                  LOL people on here are crazy. Sometimes it seems like they just want to make trades just for the sake of it. But Dan I have a question for you. How do you think Ibaka and Jonas will fit together? Because Zach Lowe made a good point about Ibaka and Nikola not fitting well together and he and JV have very similar skill sets. Lowe doesn't think big slow offensive C's fit well alongside more mobile athletic PF's because it causes the better defender (the PF) to be stuck on the perimeter and negates their rim protection. What are your thoughts? Do you see Ibaka fitting nicely alongside JV? And why do you think it didn't work well with Nikola defensively but will with JV?
                  nothing worked well on the magic.

                  Zach Lowe also has his facts switched, because Ibaka was better with Vucevic than with Biyombo, who is an "elite defender".

                  In terms of pairing with Jonas, the rim protection aspect is less important than the rotation awareness and help-consciousness that is completely absent with Siakam. Patterson isn't a rim protector but the Patterson/JV pairing works. Ibaka is hopefully an upgraded version of patterson in that respect.

                  In a dwane casey-free vacuum, Ibaka/JV should be way above average on offence and average at least on D.

                  Comment


                  • The Raptors last paid luxury tax in 2002-2003 and 2003-2004. It was like $6M total. The luxury tax system of today is much more punitive.

                    The first $5M contract over the tax comes with a $7.5m tax making it a $12.5m....and that is just the start.

                    JV's contact over the tax is going to be around $34m ($15.8m in salary and about $18m in tax). Throw Joseph in there with JV now and you're looking at $27m for him ($7m in salary and $20m in tax).

                    Keeping JV and Joseph and signing Ibaka and Lowry to max deals is going to make the Raptors the most expensive team in NBA history.

                    Does anyone see that coming from a team that has never paid the tax minus the first 2 years of inception and have not done so in 14 years?

                    If you're interested on more luxury tax information, check here: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21

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                    • They definitely have to move someone. It should be Cory and Carroll before JV though.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post
                        They definitely have to move someone. It should be Cory and Carroll before JV though.
                        He's a better player but you have to weigh that against usage, the roster and the market.
                        Pat is in that mix too.

                        Comment


                        • lewro wrote: View Post
                          He's a better player but you have to weigh that against usage, the roster and the market.
                          Pat is in that mix too.
                          Agreed. The market is ice cold on offensive big men and there is no other viable full time C on the roster. If you aren't going to get a good return on JV (and by all accounts you won't), better to keep him and pay whatever price it takes to shed guys like CoJo and Carroll, who unlike JV, have not really contributed much to the team's success this year, and who play in the same positions (PG, wing) as the all star minutes eaters on the team.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            They definitely have to move someone. It should be Cory and Carroll before JV though.
                            I could see Dallas being interested in JV. They need an infusion of young talent, period, and Cuban doesn't like to tank or wait too long to contend. And Rick Carlisle's coaching makes it difficult for them to ever finish bottom 5, regardless of who is on the roster.

                            If we could squeeze a future 1st rounder out of Dallas + expiring + young player, that would be a decent haul in a depressed market for Cs. I'll get massively flamed, but something like:

                            To Mavs: JV
                            To Raps: Bogut + Justin Anderson (SF) + Mavs 2018 or 2019 1st round pick

                            Bogut gives you high IQ rim protection & passing at C + playoff experience against the Cavs and is expiring. Anderson is a defensive wing prospect who can guard 2-3 positions. The bet here is that the Mavs stay bad and the 1st round pick becomes valuable.

                            Comment


                            • golden wrote: View Post
                              I could see Dallas being interested in JV. They need an infusion of young talent, period, and Cuban doesn't like to tank or wait too long to contend. And Rick Carlisle's coaching makes it difficult for them to ever finish bottom 5, regardless of who is on the roster.

                              If we could squeeze a future 1st rounder out of Dallas + expiring + young player, that would be a decent haul in a depressed market for Cs. I'll get massively flamed, but something like:

                              To Mavs: JV
                              To Raps: Bogut + Justin Anderson (SF) + Mavs 2018 or 2019 1st round pick

                              Bogut gives you high IQ rim protection & passing at C + playoff experience against the Cavs and is expiring. Anderson is a defensive wing prospect who can guard 2-3 positions. The bet here is that the Mavs stay bad and the 1st round pick becomes valuable.
                              You are correct to think I don't like that deal.

                              If the Mavs even agree. They love playing in FA for some reason, doubt they eat up their cap space for JV.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

                              Comment


                              • golden wrote: View Post
                                I could see Dallas being interested in JV. They need an infusion of young talent, period, and Cuban doesn't like to tank or wait too long to contend. And Rick Carlisle's coaching makes it difficult for them to ever finish bottom 5, regardless of who is on the roster.

                                If we could squeeze a future 1st rounder out of Dallas + expiring + young player, that would be a decent haul in a depressed market for Cs. I'll get massively flamed, but something like:

                                To Mavs: JV
                                To Raps: Bogut + Justin Anderson (SF) + Mavs 2018 or 2019 1st round pick

                                Bogut gives you high IQ rim protection & passing at C + playoff experience against the Cavs and is expiring. Anderson is a defensive wing prospect who can guard 2-3 positions. The bet here is that the Mavs stay bad and the 1st round pick becomes valuable.
                                Well yeah if a deal like that were ever on the table, MU would've probably went through with it

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