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  • Just Is wrote: View Post
    Ideally; that's what he works on this summer. Giving up some strength for quickness. It might even help open up some more options for him in the post if he can get it to the right mix.
    In theory, when guys shed extra muscle they tend to help themselves shooting, too (this may be a misconception on my part), so he could really develop that midrange catch and shoot game or even start really popping to three. Would make him real dangerous as a screener (even moreso than now). Plus when he first came in he was basically constantly screening all over the court with lots of energy. That's still there to some degree but way down with the bulk/conditioning.

    Of course, that's if he's even here. Not a lot of certainty about anyone on the roster with that question...
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      Nah, he was always a PnR offence, rebounding, high energy player. Some rim protection upside, but his defence was not his strong suit.

      I do think he could be a better defender if he sheds a little strength and mass for quickness, but I don't know how easy/achievable that is.
      He was also, what, 18? 19? Not sure if that's his game as a pro.....

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      • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
        Gasol dropped major weight? I'm pretty sure he and Duncan both just moved to the 5 from the 4.

        There are guys bigger (mass) than JV that are better than him at contesting on the perimeter - M. Gasol, Gortat, etc. His feet just aren't that quick and it's not the type of movement he's accustomed to. Any type of improvement from shedding weight is going to be pretty marginal (though I'll take it), and could probably be surpassed by drilling him on perimeter stance and closeouts.

        You want all your players to be as fit as humanly possible, and JV is no exception. But that he's some bulked up behemoth now is Raptors-mythologizing at work
        I believe his last year or 2 with the Lakers he had been heavier, then realized he should drop some poundage. Think I read it on Nate Jones' twitter feed back in the day.

        Either way, I'd like to see JV try and get quicker somehow. It can't hurt can it?

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        • JV on draft day

          Said Casey: “I just came from having Tyson Chandler (with the Dallas Mavericks). Tyson Chandler, at the same age, was not as good as this young man. I know how important length, athleticism, speed and quickness is. He’s not a plodder. He’s not robotic. So those things excited me as a coach.”
          https://www.thestar.com/sports/baske...s_grimace.html

          Casey said Valanciunas is better at his age than Tyson Chandler and that the decision was made "according to our roster," which he added, included "umpteen million guards" but lacked "rim protection, length and athleticism in the middle."
          http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle2073713/

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          • Even my dad says nice things about me on draft day.
            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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            • S.R. wrote: View Post
              Even my dad says nice things about me on draft day.
              Leaving the Chandler comparison aside, it's true - JV's strengths were his mobility (specifically north-south on offence), hops and length, as well as touch around the rim and free throw (and therefore presumably midrange potential) shooting. He blocked shots at a decent rate and got a lot of hustle rebounds.

              A lot of his work has gone into strength over mobility, so he has improved his positional rebounding where he just outmuscles guys to spots, and has improved his post scoring, and while his length, shooting touch and touch around the rim are still there, his quickness setting picks and slashing to the basket is mostly gone, as is his bounce.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • DanH wrote: View Post
                Leaving the Chandler comparison aside, it's true - JV's strengths were his mobility (specifically north-south on offence), hops and length, as well as touch around the rim and free throw (and therefore presumably midrange potential) shooting. He blocked shots at a decent rate and got a lot of hustle rebounds.

                A lot of his work has gone into strength over mobility, so he has improved his positional rebounding where he just outmuscles guys to spots, and has improved his post scoring, and while his length, shooting touch and touch around the rim are still there, his quickness setting picks and slashing to the basket is mostly gone, as is his bounce.
                A big thing is the lift - you can see it when he's the tallest guy in the crowd and the best he can do is tap a rebound a few times with his finger tips before some random player grabs it, he can't go up and get it while off balance in any way. Same with finishing on a roll, unless it's a wide open lane to the basket the finish is a finger roll with almost no elevation at all. In some ways it holds him back from playing as big as he is.

                I don't know if it's possible for him to turn back the clock, as was pointed out he was also just a teenager way back then and guys just plain fill out + their bodies change through their 20's.
                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                • From givony at DX.

                  "The rest of Valanciunas' game needs refinement, particularly his ball-handling and passing abilities. He turns the ball over at a pretty high rate and definitely has a ways to go in terms of improving his basketball IQ and overall experience level. The place this seems to show up most is on the defensive end. Valanciunas is a major presence in the paint with his terrific size and length. His mobility helps him out quite a bit as well. He can contest shots around the rim and has good timing for blocking shots, even if he's not what you would call a high-flyer. With that said, he's not the smartest, most reactive player you'll find right now, especially on the perimeter, which can lead to some poor rotations and open shots for opponents. Interestingly enough, even when you see him getting beat at times outside the paint he still has the ability to recover and make a play at the rim, which is a testament to his foot speed and wingspan."
                  Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...anciunas-5622/

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                  • Never thought i would see foot speed used in the same sentence as JV.

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                    • danno wrote: View Post
                      Never thought i would see foot speed used in the same sentence as JV.

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                      I think that means we kinda fucked up.

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                      • Some of that is relative too. To this day, JV would look like a much better athlete if you plopped him down in a random Euroleague game and asked him to guard the pick and roll opposed to having to do it against the best basketball players and athletes in the world. He's also just filled out a lot and flatly, gotten slower since he broke in to the league.

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                        • Fully wrote: View Post
                          Some of that is relative too. To this day, JV would look like a much better athlete if you plopped him down in a random Euroleague game and asked him to guard the pick and roll opposed to having to do it against the best basketball players and athletes in the world.
                          Sure, but I think NBA scouts can tell the difference between a prospect who just looks athletic because his peers are unathletic vs a prospect who is actually athletic.

                          Fully wrote: View Post
                          He's also just filled out a lot and flatly, gotten slower since he broke in to the league.
                          Right, which is why I'm saying it looks like they fucked up.

                          I realize the board has had arguments about this where "it's not bad" that Jonas bulked up. I don't think that's entirely wrong, the idea behind the bulk is good for sure. But he obviously bulked up without caring much for maintaining his mobility, agility, flexibility etc which just seems to say there wasn't enough oversight or (maybe worse) no foresight in terms of what the league's best defences were doing at the time. Cause even back then you could have looked to the Heat or Spurs and noticed that their big men - Bosh, Splitter, Duncan, even Haslem - had mobility and agility.

                          Not that they didn't have bulk, just that they didn't lose all their mobility when they gained it...

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                          • LJ2 wrote: View Post
                            I don't think it's his weight, it's his IQ. The fact he still pump fakes 5 times before making a move is indication of hesitancy and not knowing the best play to make. He's not quick enough with his reads, seeing the floor etc. Sure the weight or lack of helps, but more so would be if he was able to identify the best play to make at any given time so he could be assertive and quick. And that's on both ends of the court.
                            Part of that is the quick hook he got ever since he got here.

                            His confidence issues are now well-documented. He was way more certain as a rookie than he is now.

                            Just look at the difference in opportunity; over their first five years, DeMar got 78% more field goal attempts and 34% more minutes. And I bet the bulk of those minutes are in the fourth.

                            It will always be one of the great what-ifs of our organization to see what he might have become if we'd just stuck with developing him. All those extra regular season wins with him on the bench don't mean a thing now that we've got four years of playoff evidence that our ceiling is pretty well-defined.
                            It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

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                            • Exactly what x's and o's can we point too that this team has, to put JV in deep post position? How many plays do we consistently run that gets him deep post easily?

                              I'm not talking about saying 'let's try to get it to JV now, as the world is burning around us - and let's have him fighting like a wild animal for that position' - I'm talking about proper plays that get him the ball while he's in his sweet spot. Get it to him with min effort. So he can do what he does best. Which is be damn near automatic near the rim.

                              Talent isn't the problem. Understanding limitations. Understanding strengths. Building a system around the talent, while mitigating the weaknesses is literally what coaches are hired for.

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                              • What a joke. Marciulionis would fit in just fine on this forum. It's never JV's fault.

                                Some harsh words on Kyle Lowry from NBA Hall of Famer Sarunas Marciulionis who defends Jonas Valanciunas https://t.co/4XOU320QXE

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                                Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Fri Jun 2nd, 2017, 09:02 PM.
                                @Chr1st1anL

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