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  • Puffer wrote: View Post
    I'm just tired of watching JV roth on the bench. If the system can't make good use of him, then move him. If the Raps can get a pick at 11, they should be able to pick up a player who is contributing 20 - 25 minutes a game, if not more. Or make room for one of their young guys. I really like what JV brings, but what's the point of hanging on to him because he is talented, if the coach can't ensure that talent is put to use for the raptors. Get what you can and move on. If the Raps can do better than MKG and the 11th pick, I'm all for it.
    Well, considering the coach should already have been fired, and while Masai has endorsed him it's in a way that puts him on the hot seat right off the bat, you don't make moves because of what this coach is/isn't doing. You'd be selling low because our coach is an idiot.

    11th pick is not a good asset. There's a couple of standout names, but a lot of shitty pieces, especially in more recent years (probably because teams now draft more for potential than for proven NCAA players, but that also means that the latter type are more likely to still be available at our own pick anyway).

    Year Player
    2013 Michael Carter-Williams
    2012 Meyers Leonard
    2011 Klay Thompson
    2010 Cole Aldrich
    2009 Terrence Williams
    2008 Jerryd Bayless
    2007 Acie Law
    2006 JJ Redick
    2005 Fran Vazquez
    2004 Andris Biedrins
    2003 Mickael Pietrus
    2002 Jared Jeffries
    2001 Kedrick Brown
    2000 Jerome Moiso
    1999 Trajan Langdon
    1998 Bonzi Wells
    1997 Olivier Saint-Jean
    1996 Todd Fuller
    1995 Gary Trent
    1994 Carlos Rogers
    1993 Allan Houston
    1992 Robert Horry
    1991 Terrell Brandon
    1990 Tyrone Hill
    1989 Nick Anderson
    1988 Will Perdue
    1987 Reggie Miller
    1986 John Salley
    1985 Keith Lee
    1984 Kevin Willis
    1983 Derek Harper
    1982 Lafayette Lever
    1981 Frank Johnson
    1980 Kiki Vandeweghe

    Comment


    • lewro wrote: View Post
      Yeah, I agree with this. We should try to move carroll, cojo and bebe first but still field calls for JV and weigh those options imo.
      I think there's a gap between the league's perceived value of JV and our fanbase (I'm guessing that's not a popular sentiment for some). That said, we don't know what's being discussed and masai is a wizard.
      Hypothetically, if we got mkg, does that change the likelihood of resigning pj?
      The problem is, it doesn't impact our ability to re-sign PJ but we still wouldn't be able to add a diffferent piece, like a shooter, any more easily. If we brought both PJ back and got MKG, we'd have even worse shooting issues next year with the risk that MKG could miss a quarter-plus of the season.

      I think the bigger problem is how our fanbase values players on other teams, or a higher draft pick. Or how they perceive the cap situation. As deflated as JV's value may seem, he's still one of this team's best assets. Trading him and getting nothing of long-term value back would be a huge loss. Even in the riskier scenario of a pre-free agency deal around the draft, there's gotta be something that either gives you a better pick than 11, or a better piece than MKG, if not both. Sacto has two top 10 picks, terrible management/ownership, and lots of mid-level assets they don't need like Koufos, Temple and the not likely to get any better Cauley-Stein. And I'd still try much harder to do as you suggest, and look to move Carroll or Cojo first in a more modest move to move up and shed salary.

      Bebe would just be a throw in to any deal I think. He can't have much value beyond that in the league.
      Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Jun 4th, 2017, 03:12 PM.

      Comment


      • Guys, MKG is fantastic. I mean, he can't score, but he's been improving there, and he's one of the best defensive wings in the league. If we are going small, and want to run a shooter at the 5 (Ibaka) and at one of the forward spots, he fits great.

        Moving up in the draft and getting MKG is the best case scenario if they decide to move on from JV. I think they can still use JV in we that can better emphasize his strengths and hide his weaknesses, and he can still be a very good piece, but if they do decide to move him, and they manage to get a package like that, I would not complain. I'd expect if they move him, they'll get far, far less value than that.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

        Comment


        • DanH wrote: View Post
          Guys, MKG is fantastic. I mean, he can't score, but he's been improving there, and he's one of the best defensive wings in the league. If we are going small, and want to run a shooter at the 5 (Ibaka) and at one of the forward spots, he fits great.

          Moving up in the draft and getting MKG is the best case scenario if they decide to move on from JV. I think they can still use JV in we that can better emphasize his strengths and hide his weaknesses, and he can still be a very good piece, but if they do decide to move him, and they manage to get a package like that, I would not complain. I'd expect if they move him, they'll get far, far less value than that.
          Agreed. If there was one team to balk at that hypothetical deal I would expect it to be the Hornets.

          Comment


          • DanH wrote: View Post
            Guys, MKG is fantastic. I mean, he can't score, but he's been improving there, and he's one of the best defensive wings in the league. If we are going small, and want to run a shooter at the 5 (Ibaka) and at one of the forward spots, he fits great.

            Moving up in the draft and getting MKG is the best case scenario if they decide to move on from JV. I think they can still use JV in we that can better emphasize his strengths and hide his weaknesses, and he can still be a very good piece, but if they do decide to move him, and they manage to get a package like that, I would not complain. I'd expect if they move him, they'll get far, far less value than that.
            Agreed. I think this is reasonable and should be noted that Dan has been one of the more consistently ardent proponents for JV on this board.
            I think if we have the chance to draft a Klay-level talent then we have to take it bc the talent gap between us and the contenders is much greater than the gap between us and the tier below (and that gap is closing) and it's hard to add talent when u r up against the cap.
            The question re Tucker is not about affordability (the higher rookie contract - 11th - balances the $2m diff between JV and mkg), it's a question of whether there is significant PT for Tucker? For example, a wing rotation of DD, mkg, norm and Donovan Mitchell (or Kennard to a lesser extent) sounds good to me. Making some additional moves (Carroll, cojo, bebe) might allow us to use the full non tax mle on a actually useful vet (as opposed to a lesser extension or an undrafted player).
            I don't think bebe is worth a lot (maybe a decent 2nd?) but I do think he has potential for multiple suitors. Someone could take a swing based on his first half performance (particularly the analytics) and his fit in the modern NBA. I'm thinking of the (shit) Noel deal as a by-low example of an RFA with a somewhat comparable game.

            Comment


            • DanH wrote: View Post
              Guys, MKG is fantastic. I mean, he can't score, but he's been improving there, and he's one of the best defensive wings in the league. If we are going small, and want to run a shooter at the 5 (Ibaka) and at one of the forward spots, he fits great.

              Moving up in the draft and getting MKG is the best case scenario if they decide to move on from JV. I think they can still use JV in we that can better emphasize his strengths and hide his weaknesses, and he can still be a very good piece, but if they do decide to move him, and they manage to get a package like that, I would not complain. I'd expect if they move him, they'll get far, far less value than that.
              I think you might complain next year when we're rolling out small-ball units that lack shooting, ballhandling, passing, get frequently outrebounded and are unable to match up when we do face teams with bigger units, and we would be quite small even for a small-ball team.

              Do people not understand that the most important thing if you're going to go small is being able to shoot and dictate the pace of the game with your offence? We're bad at moving the ball and our shooting would get worse with MKG.

              Comment


              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                I think you might complain next year when we're rolling out small-ball units that lack shooting, ballhandling, passing, get frequently outrebounded and are unable to match up when we do face teams with bigger units, and we would be quite small even for a small-ball team.

                Do people not understand that the most important thing if you're going to go small is being able to shoot and dictate the pace of the game with your offence? We're bad at moving the ball and our shooting would get worse with MKG.
                Exactly. We had PJ, who looked like ultimate 3 & D wing we all hoped for in the regular season, but that did squat for us in the playoffs. Not moving the ball in the regular season, and not mixing up the offense to keep the defense off-balance is one of the problems that has to be fixed before we start saying.... let's get this guy or that guy and plug him into the same old Ride or Die system.

                Comment


                • golden wrote: View Post
                  Exactly. We had PJ, who looked like ultimate 3 & D wing we all hoped for in the regular season, but that did squat for us in the playoffs. Not moving the ball in the regular season, and not mixing up the offense to keep the defense off-balance is one of the problems that has to be fixed before we start saying.... let's get this guy or that guy and plug him into the same old Ride or Die system.
                  In a vacuum though, removing JV could help the team become more of a ball movement oriented one given his poor passing ability and generally low IQ. Not saying that we need to move JV necessarily, or that we can't achieve the "style change" we keep hearing so much about with him still in the fold, I just would stop well short of ruling out a transition to a move diverse offence just because JV is being moved out.

                  Comment


                  • Whoa, in no way am I advocating moving JV. Bad idea. But if they are dead set on going small, sacrificing rebounding for switchability and shooting, AND want to trade JV for value rather than cap space (which I don't believe they would do, with how crucial cap/tax space will be this summer), then the described deal for MKG is about as good as it could get.

                    That doesn't mean I'd want to make the trade, or agree with the direction.

                    I also think the spacing concerns with MKG are overdone. His defence more than makes up for his deficiencies offensively, and with shooters around him he's not as big a problem (he'd essentially be the C in such a lineup, spacing wise).
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

                    Comment


                    • Fully wrote: View Post
                      In a vacuum though, removing JV could help the team become more of a ball movement oriented one given his poor passing ability and generally low IQ. Not saying that we need to move JV necessarily, or that we can't achieve the "style change" we keep hearing so much about with him still in the fold, I just would stop well short of ruling out a transition to a move diverse offence just because JV is being moved out.
                      Considering that the team has had a higher assist rate with JV on the floor than off for the past two seasons, I'm going to go with "JV isn't the problem here" for 200, Alex.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • Fully wrote: View Post
                        In a vacuum though, removing JV could help the team become more of a ball movement oriented one given his poor passing ability and generally low IQ. Not saying that we need to move JV necessarily, or that we can't achieve the "style change" we keep hearing so much about with him still in the fold, I just would stop well short of ruling out a transition to a move diverse offence just because JV is being moved out.
                        We have large sample sizes of the team playing without JV and the ball doesn't seem to start zipping around as soon as he exits the game. That stretch of games where Lowry was injured and DeMar started giving up the ball early in the possession was probably some of best ball movement we saw all year and JV was starting. JV as a scapegoat for ball movement seems like a bit of a reach, imo.

                        Comment


                        • DanH wrote: View Post
                          Considering that the team has had a higher assist rate with JV on the floor than off for the past two seasons, I'm going to go with "JV isn't the problem here" for 200, Alex.
                          Yeah I didn't say he was the problem either; he's not the reason that the Raptors offence became so stagnant at times. But he's certainly not a good passer, as virtually any passing metric on him would tell you, so it's not like a more pass friendly, ball movement oriented offence would not be possible in his absence.

                          Comment


                          • Fully wrote: View Post
                            Yeah I didn't say he was the problem either; he's not the reason that the Raptors offence became so stagnant at times. But he's certainly not a good passer, as virtually any passing metric on him would tell you, so it's not like a more pass friendly, ball movement oriented offence would not be possible in his absence.
                            Passing metric are very dependent on being involved. Those same types of metrics would tell you he sees the ball less than most players on the team, and gets less post touches than even some of the worst offensive Cs in the league. The eye test says he's a capable, albeit unspectacular passer. He's actually shown a nice ability to hit cutters, and struggles more actually kicking it out from the post, probably unaided by the absolutely atrocious spacing when we run any post play (including if we use DeMar or Ibaka or whoever...it's everyone cram into the weak side and you're lucky if someone decides to cut). And when he rolls he's perfectly capable of swinging the ball to the other side, though if we actually pass to him on the roll he's probably in a decent spot to put up a shot.

                            Comment


                            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                              Passing metric are very dependent on being involved. Those same types of metrics would tell you he sees the ball less than most players on the team, and gets less post touches than even some of the worst offensive Cs in the league. The eye test says he's a capable, albeit unspectacular passer. He's actually shown a nice ability to hit cutters, and struggles more actually kicking it out from the post, probably unaided by the absolutely atrocious spacing when we run any post play (including if we use DeMar or Ibaka or whoever...it's everyone cram into the weak side and you're lucky if someone decides to cut). And when he rolls he's perfectly capable of swinging the ball to the other side, though if we actually pass to him on the roll he's probably in a decent spot to put up a shot.
                              It is okay to admit that JV has shortcomings in his game. He's not a good passer. All passing stats show that to be resoundingly so (among the worst in the league type bad) and the eye test is that he's clunky and lacks a lot of the intuitive sense to do it at anything more than a base level. That's okay; it doesn't make him a complete bum, and it doesn't have to be the coaches fault or his teammates fault, or whoever else's fault. Sometimes you're just not that good at something as a player.

                              Comment


                              • Whatever your opinion may be in this convo, I do think it's a good one and has stimulated a number of responses.
                                I don't think the lack of ball movement is jvs fault but in today's episode of small sample theatre, I will say that the team had 22 and 25 assists in the two games that JV did not play this yr. Lowry had 10 and a season high 13 assists. That doesn't mean anything but I make mention bc I do remember the 25/13 assist game vs OKC bc I really enjoyed the way the ball moved that game. It was "zipping" imo and bebe was 5/5 on alley oops. Imo a better rimmer runner version of bebe (like DeAndre) would be the ideal fit.
                                If the clips blow it up, does a JV + for DeAndre interest people?

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