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  • Fully wrote: View Post
    It is okay to admit that JV has shortcomings in his game. He's not a good passer. All passing stats show that to be resoundingly so (among the worst in the league type bad) and the eye test is that he's clunky and lacks a lot of the intuitive sense to do it at anything more than a base level. That's okay; it doesn't make him a complete bum, and it doesn't have to be the coaches fault or his teammates fault, or whoever else's fault. Sometimes you're just not that good at something as a player.
    Or sometimes you're never even given an adequate chance. You seem fine rolling out the passing metrics, but don't seem at all interested in things like touches or post up opportunities. He ranks very poorly in both those categories among big men. And if you don't touch the ball, you can't get many assists. And we know from watching this team that the bulk of his touches come on the perimeter where he just passes/hands the ball off to the ballhandler. Very few opportunities a game where he could actually register assists, made even worse for him (and everybody) with the lack of movement in our offence. So you can use the metrics for passing all you want, but unfortunately they don't paint nearly as clear a picture as you're making it out to be.

    *Let me also add I don't think JV is a tremendous passer. I think he's probably about average for a big/centre. So I definitely don't think he's in any way the problem with our poor passing offence, nor do I think giving him the ball more would make it harder to run a better passing offence. We could easily run a more pass-friendly offence that involved him more, and he'd probably average a couple of assists (but you'll probably never see him putting up like 4 apg or anything, and that's fine).
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Jun 5th, 2017, 12:36 AM.

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    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      Or sometimes you're never even given an adequate chance. You seem fine rolling out the passing metrics, but don't seem at all interested in things like touches or post up opportunities. He ranks very poorly in both those categories among big men. And if you don't touch the ball, you can't get many assists. And we know from watching this team that the bulk of his touches come on the perimeter where he just passes/hands the ball off to the ballhandler. Very few opportunities a game where he could actually register assists, made even worse for him (and everybody) with the lack of movement in our offence. So you can use the metrics for passing all you want, but unfortunately they don't paint nearly as clear a picture as you're making it out to be.

      *Let me also add I don't think JV is a tremendous passer. I think he's probably about average for a big/centre. So I definitely don't think he's in any way the problem with our poor passing offence, nor do I think giving him the ball more would make it harder to run a better passing offence. We could easily run a more pass-friendly offence that involved him more, and he'd probably average a couple of assists (but you'll probably never see him putting up like 4 apg or anything, and that's fine).
      Yeah just to add/rephrase your point, nobody asks JV to create for others. Raps use him as a finisher, not a creator. I imagine a large part of this is because they recognize he isn't a good passer, but it also means that his passing stats are going to look worse than most of the "skilled" big men.

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      • JV isn't a good passer maybe, but he's not a ball stopper and trading him isn't going to suddenly unlock our godly offence. He has his shortcomings but passing isn't the one that's affecting the team. He doesn't even touch the ball enough to be considered a good passer.


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        • Let's say JV is has average passing skills for a big ( although I'd like anyone to find anything outside the fanbase who agrees). Is any other rotation player (including the FA's) above average for their position?

          A pass oriented offence will look better than our current offence, and there will be games where it will work, but I'm highly skeptical of whether it will actually translate into success.
          If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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          • So JV is a mediocre passer and his teammates don't pass him the ball but he's not part of the ball movement problem?

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            • Sorry if this rubs people the wrong way but I'll just add that the running JV defense all yr was wait for the playoffs. Now that it's over, was it worth the wait?

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              • Pretty good offer for a player that is not being heavily featured on our team. We get a good defender that is one of the better rebounding SF's and a chance to add a shooter while replenishing some depth which we are sure to jettison this summer. Charlotte gets a skilled big man that they can hopefully involve more in their offence.

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                • lewro wrote: View Post
                  Sorry if this rubs people the wrong way but I'll just add that the running JV defense all yr was wait for the playoffs. Now that it's over, was it worth the wait?
                  I think the answer is obviously no, not worth the wait.

                  JV is a solid player, but is a mediocre passer at best....he's clearly not really a difference maker unless you run into a team that lacks shooters at the 5 spot.


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                  • oh man. i'm a JV fan but i'd do that trade in a heartbeat.

                    if you could draft Markkanen too oh my god
                    @sweatpantsjer

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                    • lewro wrote: View Post
                      Sorry if this rubs people the wrong way but I'll just add that the running JV defense all yr was wait for the playoffs. Now that it's over, was it worth the wait?
                      That wasn't the defence. The defence was he carried us through last year's playoffs, which he did. Some people would say "wait for playoffs this year". Some people, like me, knew that once the Ibaka trade happened it wouldn't matter and he wouldn't get the chance to repeat that performance even if he was dominant, which he wasn't. There's zero doubt in my mind that we would have had an easier time with Milly if we knew how to get him involved and played more of a halfcourt game. But since Casey is our coach he obviously matched up to them as soon as things got rocky at all.

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                      • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        That wasn't the defence. The defence was he carried us through last year's playoffs, which he did. Some people would say "wait for playoffs this year". Some people, like me, knew that once the Ibaka trade happened it wouldn't matter and he wouldn't get the chance to repeat that performance even if he was dominant, which he wasn't. There's zero doubt in my mind that we would have had an easier time with Milly if we knew how to get him involved and played more of a halfcourt game. But since Casey is our coach he obviously matched up to them as soon as things got rocky at all.

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                        Just curious, what do you see JV's trade value being? You seem higher on him than I am and I enjoy your posts. Let's assume the raps want to bring back Lowry and Ibaka and Tucker and that no one wants Carroll. JV is a candidate to get moved in a salary dump or we face the one of the largest luxury tax bills in the history of the NBA up until this point.

                        What deal for JV makes you happy?

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                        • Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post
                          Just curious, what do you see JV's trade value being? You seem higher on him than I am and I enjoy your posts. Let's assume the raps want to bring back Lowry and Ibaka and Tucker and that no one wants Carroll. JV is a candidate to get moved in a salary dump or we face the one of the largest luxury tax bills in the history of the NBA up until this point.

                          What deal for JV makes you happy?
                          Honestly the thing that bugs me most about the trade is the combo of MKG's crappy injury history and lack of offence. If we want to buy into small ball we need to upgrade our perimeter offence big time. Our primary option is already a bad fit for small ball since he's not a great passer or shooter.

                          Theoretically a young role player and a lottery pick isn't bad. In a vacuum that's a good return. I'd also be ok with veteran role player(s) if they're reliable enough and come with a lottery pick (Sacto is an example I gave here as they have two high picks and some guys they may not want to hang onto long term).

                          But getting back to my MKG thing, it doesn't matter if he'd help us defensively because we take a step back offensively, and in small-ball you dictate the game with offence, not defence. If we're going to go that way, we need more than a style/culture change. Very few pieces we currently have are good for that style. We lack shooters and versatile two-way players.

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                          Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Jun 5th, 2017, 03:15 PM.

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                          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            Honestly the thing that bugs me most about the trade is the combo of MKG's crappy injury history and lack of offence. If we want to buy into small ball we need to upgrade our perimeter offence big time. Our primary option is already a bad fit for small ball since he's not a great passer or shooter.

                            Theoretically a young role player and a lottery pick isn't bad. I'd also be ok with veteran role player(s) if they're reliable enough and come with a lottery pick (Sacto is an example I gave here as they have two high picks and some guys they may not want to hang onto long term).

                            But getting back to my MKG thing, it doesn't matter if he'd help us defensively because we take a step back offensively, and in small-ball you dictate the game with offence, not defence. If we're going to go that way, we need more than a style/culture change. Very few pieces we currently have are good for that style. We lack shooters and versatile two-way players.

                            Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
                            With Ibaka presumably taking the place of JV at C, and assuming Masai's emphasis on wanting more ball movement is legit, does our offense take a step back by swapping out MKG for JV? You're essentially distributing JV's shots between Ibaka and anyone other than DeMar or Lowry. Ibaka isn't as good as JV in the post, but has a better mid range game which should fit better in the new system.

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                            • LJ2 wrote: View Post
                              With Ibaka presumably taking the place of JV at C, and assuming Masai's emphasis on wanting more ball movement is legit, does our offense take a step back by swapping out MKG for JV? You're essentially distributing JV's shots between Ibaka and anyone other than DeMar or Lowry. Ibaka isn't as good as JV in the post, but has a better mid range game which should fit better in the new system.
                              That's not how it works. Ibaka is a better shooter but not good in the post or isolation, MKG is bad at most things. JV is an excellent offensive player, and we know they're trying to extend his range. This deal would make us better defensively for small ball but worse offensively. Who are the pieces helping to move the ball more? Who are the pieces to take open shots? We will likely lose Pat too...so literally no aspect of our offence gets better unless we make another significant deal, which will be damn near impossible in our situation. Our rotation just gets smaller. Giving JV's offence to smaller guys doesn't make us better offensively, small ball or not. We already lack shooters, playmakers and the versatile two-way players you need for small-ball. I don't see this deal changing that, and don't expect enough changes from Casey's "coaching" staff.

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                              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                                That's not how it works. Ibaka is a better shooter but not good in the post or isolation, MKG is bad at most things. JV is an excellent offensive player, and we know they're trying to extend his range. This deal would make us better defensively for small ball but worse offensively. Who are the pieces helping to move the ball more? Who are the pieces to take open shots? We will likely lose Pat too...so literally no aspect of our offence gets better unless we make another significant deal, which will be damn near impossible in our situation. Our rotation just gets smaller. Giving JV's offence to smaller guys doesn't make us better offensively, small ball or not. We already lack shooters, playmakers and the versatile two-way players you need for small-ball. I don't see this deal changing that, and don't expect enough changes from Casey's "coaching" staff.

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                                I share your skepticism in how our offence could change. Lowry doesn't have the vision or knack for play making and passing like Chris Paul and DeMar the same. So if our primary ball handlers aren't suited for a ball movement type offence then how exactly Masai plans to accomplish this is a mystery.

                                However, if the plan is revamp the offence and create more shots from the perimeter then JV's shot attempts aren't hugely necessary in the post. You do need someone down there battling for put backs though, and I have no idea if MKG is good in that area. He grabs about 7 rebs a game which is good for a SF.

                                The other option is that the Raptors don't make a drastic change to their offence. So they stick with the same basic iso offence initiated by Lowry/DeMar and perhaps phase in a bit more ball movement. The new wrinkle being they are an improved small ball defensive team that have a good defender with size to put up against LBJ. Though the talk has mostly surrounded changing the offence, the defence clearly needs to be better against the Cav's small ball offence. The Cav's are finding this out first hand against GSW.

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