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  • Quirk wrote: View Post
    This part makes my point. Thomas, as I already noted, is probably the best player on the team, and they've added a player in Hayward, who is at least as good, perhaps better (imo much better) than Thomas, their best player.

    While we have traded a difference maker in Tucker, a well above average player, for a league average player in CJ Mills.

    This would mean that the only thing we are counting on to not lose ground to Boston is internal growth. Which exactly what my comment said.
    I didn't say we hadn't lost ground to them. I said we were significantly better than them last year, and they haven't made up all that ground yet.

    Yes, Hayward makes them better. Yes, as well, his skill overlap with Thomas decreases that impact a bit, as does Boston's loss of their best rebounders and defenders to bring him on.

    I'm really not following on this Tucker-is-way-better-than-Miles thing. Any evidence of that whatsoever? Tucker is a roughly league average player, maybe slightly above. Miles is a roughly league average player, maybe slightly above. Nevermind that I'd have picked the pre-Tucker/Ibaka Raptors over the Celtics in the playoffs in the first place.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      Miles is a roughly league average player, maybe slightly above. Nevermind that I'd have picked the pre-Tucker/Ibaka Raptors over the Celtics in the playoffs in the first place.
      Not sure I can agree that Boston has to make up ground on us, given that they won the conference and made the ECF, not us. I do agree that we have better players, for the most part, but with Tucker going out and them getting Hayward this becomes narrower.

      The fact is, that even with worse players, they performed better than us, and there is no reason to believe that will change.

      WRT to Miles vs Tucker, to me it's quite clear:

      http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players...&season=career

      I know you dislike WP, so I welcome your basis of comparison.

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      • Quirk wrote: View Post
        Not sure I can agree that Boston has to make up ground on us, given that they won the conference and made the ECF, not us. I do agree that we have better players, for the most part, but with Tucker going out and them getting Hayward this becomes narrower.

        The fact is, that even with worse players, they performed better than us, and there is no reason to believe that will change.

        WRT to Miles vs Tucker, to me it's quite clear:

        http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players...&season=career

        I know you dislike WP, so I welcome your basis of comparison.
        But they didn't perform better than us. They snuck out lucky wins with a poor point differential, almost bowed out in the first round against MIA until their only functional PG got hurt, and then had to face the ever-so-scary Wizards, the team without a bench. You think BOS does any better against CLE than the Raptors do? They got a pity win like we did in the ECF the prior season, but outside of that got destroyed even more thoroughly than we did. If the Raptors were in that bracket they'd have been in the ECF instead. It's no real measure of their success.

        The biggest issue with WP is the dramatic overvaluing of rebounds, the one area of the game where Tucker is significantly and measurably better than Miles. They are basically identical in WS, both within a point of average in BPM and RPM... Miles is a better shooter, Tucker is a better defender, both are fine at the other, and Tucker rebounds better.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • The intangible that Tucker brought to last year's squad was his personality - his willingness to speak the truth and hold people accountable. It was sorely needed, it has not been replaced, and it will be missed.
          "Stop eating your sushi."
          "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
          "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
          - Jack Armstrong

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          • There are still some good vet players out there in free agency which can bring what Tucker gave us. Aflolo, or Brandon Bass for example could help us out. Masaii is just waiting to see who ends up without a contract as free agency winds down and he'll make his low ball pitch like he did with Sully, and Scola.

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            • LJ2 wrote: View Post
              There are still some good vet players out there in free agency which can bring what Tucker gave us. Aflolo, or Brandon Bass for example could help us out. Masaii is just waiting to see who ends up without a contract as free agency winds down and he'll make his low ball pitch like he did with Sully, and Scola.
              It's possible. It would mean going into the tax for sure. I don't know if there's an appetite for that just for a veteran to sit on the bench.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • Quirk wrote: View Post
                Boston made the ECF with essentially a team of league average players, now they have a significantly above average player in Hayward. Whereas we've exchange a difference maker in Tucker, for C.J. Miles, an average player. Not saying we should be scared, but I would say we've lost ground. Carroll and Joseph are easily replaced with Powell and Wright.

                We're definitely betting on internal growth.
                You could easily argue that losing Carroll was a win for the Raptors. Personally I think replacing DC with Powell improves the team.

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                • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                  The intangible that Tucker brought to last year's squad was his personality - his willingness to speak the truth and hold people accountable. It was sorely needed, it has not been replaced, and it will be missed.
                  I think the drop off between the outgoing guys and the incoming guys will mostly be due to experience and will disappear with time. At the 3+D wing, Carroll and Tucker are gone and they have Powell, Miles, and OG in with maybe a bit of Bruno. I think that's fine. Tucker would have been nice but he walked and there's enough talent there to cover the position, it's not like the PF hole they had at the start of last season.
                  "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                  • Quirk wrote:
                    Are you comparing Miles and Tucker from last year, or career?
                    Just last year, but it holds pretty well over their recent career (Tucker's NBA career isn't exactly a huge list of seasons like Miles'), for the stats that are available for multiple seasons.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • Puffer wrote: View Post
                      You could easily argue that losing Carroll was a win for the Raptors. Personally I think replacing DC with Powell improves the team.
                      I'd definitely argue with Ibaka in, Carroll out, + the young guys it's a net gain for the 82 game schedule . I don't understand predicting a step back in the W/L.
                      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post
                        The biggest issue with WP is the dramatic overvaluing of rebounds, the one area of the game where Tucker is significantly and measurably better than Miles. They are basically identical in WS, both within a point of average in BPM and RPM... Miles is a better shooter, Tucker is a better defender, both are fine at the other, and Tucker rebounds better.
                        Are you comparing them from last season or careers?

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                        • Quirk wrote: View Post
                          Are you comparing them from last season or careers?
                          Like I said above, last season, but looking at their careers they have been pretty consistent so the comparisons hold up longer term as well.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • Boston lost a front line starter in Bradley and replaced him with a front line starter in Hayward. Hayward is good but is he that much better a player than Bradley that he alone is the guy that is separating Boston from the pack by miles ?
                            Probably not.
                            Yet the drum beat goes on about how much better Boston got in a material sense this off season. It's surreal to not see an article or two on the gaping hole they have to fill with Bradley a ball handling wing who makes 3's at close to 40% and is an all NBA defender.

                            Amir didn't play a ton of minutes but he gave them interior defense and rebounding when he was in. Jerebco was a guy off the bench. Olynyk gave them size, rebounding and 3 point shooting.
                            Have to say it's a wash between what the Raps lost in Tucker and Patterson and what Boston lost.

                            Brown will be better. Tatum is just potential right now. Nothing more. History demonstrates 1st year players do not move the needle all that much. Sure Shaq and Lebron did but they are the exception more than the rule.

                            They look to be better offensively but by losing Bradley and Amir worse defensively.
                            I'd say Boston is different ....not better.

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                            • I really don't think Boston got much better. As demographic shift wrote, Avery Bradley is an excellent player. Incredible defender, really good shooter and a decent scorer. Replacing him with Hayward helps their offence slightly and really hurts their already vulnerable defence. And this change from plus defence to plus offence is good for us. We can beat a good offensive team easier than a good defensive team. Who's guarding Demar on the celtics? If it's Hayward, then who guards Lowry? Smart is overrated and a minus of offence who gambles too much on defence.


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                              • Maury wrote: View Post
                                Avery Bradley is an excellent player. Incredible defender, really good shooter and a decent scorer. Replacing him with Hayward helps their offence slightly
                                does it though? hayward had the ball as much as hill last year. thomas has to have the ball. i would say they got the best offensive player in the summer but i wouldn't say it has made them a better team on offense.

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