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  • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    Boston lost a front line starter in Bradley and replaced him with a front line starter in Hayward. Hayward is good but is he that much better a player than Bradley that he alone is the guy that is separating Boston from the pack by miles ?
    Probably not.
    Yet the drum beat goes on about how much better Boston got in a material sense this off season. It's surreal to not see an article or two on the gaping hole they have to fill with Bradley a ball handling wing who makes 3's at close to 40% and is an all NBA defender.

    Amir didn't play a ton of minutes but he gave them interior defense and rebounding when he was in. Jerebco was a guy off the bench. Olynyk gave them size, rebounding and 3 point shooting.
    Have to say it's a wash between what the Raps lost in Tucker and Patterson and what Boston lost.

    Brown will be better. Tatum is just potential right now. Nothing more. History demonstrates 1st year players do not move the needle all that much. Sure Shaq and Lebron did but they are the exception more than the rule.

    They look to be better offensively but by losing Bradley and Amir worse defensively.
    I'd say Boston is different ....not better.
    i do not see Boston getting better unless if Hayward can play on the floor with the other small forward prospects and they can develop but this does not offset the loss of Kelly and amir. They are talented at at big wings a but are now lacking in power positions

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    • Quirk wrote: View Post
      So I wrote a team of "essentially a team of league average players," not "every player on the team is exactly league average"

      Bradley is slightly above average, IT, like Tucker is significantly above average, a difference maker, but not an elite player by any means. Hayward is much more productive than either. Neither Thomas or Bradley should be a started on an elite team. What Boston accomplished with a team of essentially league average players is amazing.

      i.e., here is how WP ranks them:

      boxscore geeks


      (please don't make this a thread about WP itself, it's just one measure)
      I'm sorry but PJ Tucker is not a difference maker or significantly above average. He is an NBA journeyman player. Nothing wrong with that... but that is what he is. You may disagree with that but you'd be hard pressed to gain a quirk quorum on it.

      The most sanguine of measures of your value is what you get paid for what you do. Lets call it TE% (true earning percentage)


      Tucker signed for about 11M dollars this year with the salary cap the highest its ever been. Other players in that bracket some in at lower cap years are: Joe Ingles, Mathew Delavadova, Jordan Clarkson, Mirza Teletovic, Jon Leur, Tony Snell, Darren Collison Jared Dudley and Myers Leonard. There are more.

      Unless your a blood relative or their agent none of those names scream difference maker or "above average". Yet thats where PJ is in a fair market value system.

      Avery Bradley will sign for somewhere between 25 and 30M$ next year. You don't pay "slightly above average" players that kind of money regardless of what an algorithm laden set of probabilities devised by people in a small room with no window and a small fan come up with.
      Last edited by Demographic Shift; Mon Jul 24th, 2017, 05:42 PM.

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      • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
        does it though? hayward had the ball as much as hill last year. thomas has to have the ball. i would say they got the best offensive player in the summer but i wouldn't say it has made them a better team on offense.
        Yeah, this is where I'm at with the Celtics. They added a primary ball handler to a team that extracts value out of Thomas by having him always have the ball. It's how they do better than break even with all that Thomas gives back on the other end. Taking the ball out of his hands to let Hayward create offence will probably help them diversify their offence, but will also decrease Thomas' impact on the game. I do think overall it helps them (offensively), but not in any sort of leap or bound.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • Enough about Boston, I'm much more concerned about as Masai said, the team growing complacent. What is this team playing for anymore and do they lack the hunger for more? After getting whooped by the Cav's two years in a row, has this team sort of thrown in the towel? Do they have the competitive fire to try and beat them or are they satisfied with being second best? It's that sort of complacency which I think will allow for a more hungry team like Boston to beat them.

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          • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
            does it though? hayward had the ball as much as hill last year. thomas has to have the ball. i would say they got the best offensive player in the summer but i wouldn't say it has made them a better team on offense.
            I do think it's an improvement just because now they can stagger two guys who can run an offence likely the whole game, similar to what we do with Kyle and Demar. The good thing about Hayward is he doesn't give up much on the other side as well. Again, it's not a major improvement in my eyes, but it does make them a bit better on offence but the loss of Bradley is gonna hurt a lot.

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            • LJ2 wrote: View Post
              Enough about Boston, I'm much more concerned about as Masai said, the team growing complacent. What is this team playing for anymore and do they lack the hunger for more? After getting whooped by the Cav's two years in a row, has this team sort of thrown in the towel? Do they have the competitive fire to try and beat them or are they satisfied with being second best? It's that sort of complacency which I think will allow for a more hungry team like Boston to beat them.
              Sometimes its better to be lucky than to be good.

              The Raps along with the Whiz and Boston are pretty lucky that Cleveland, after reaching the Finals, have begun to unravel a bit at the seams. The owner doesn't want to pay any more than the 220M he projects to have to bankroll this year so he is closing up the treasury. As part of the cost cutting they went without a GM during FA as it wouldn't matter all that much as the owner has put away the cheque book. They signed no one of significance and didn't have a 1st round pick in the draft. Their second best player has aspirations to be the best player on the team, just not on the one he is playing on and has asked out. Their best player will always be the best player but to the surprise of fewer and fewer he is rumoured to want to be the best somewhere other than Cleveland. They may yet steer the ship off the rocks but right now it looks like Cleveland is coming back to the field.

              As to the Raps becoming stale... You can look at it that they have addressed that by going with the kids this year for better or worse. I think it will be for better. If you go with the wisdom that their 6 best players are Lowry, Derozan, Ibalka, Valancuinas and a dead heat between Miles/Powell then the next 4 guys up off the bench are 2nd and 3rd year kids who are looking to make a name for themselves in a suddenly more open East. Wright, Poeltl, Siakam and Freddy V V are going to see a lot of floor time. Those guys still can't believe they are getting paid to play. Combine that with the apparent Cleveland problems and the experienced players see a shot at going to the NBA finals. Nothing like seeing your best competitor limping around to get the vets juiced again.

              Ujiri has done a good job of blending experience and youth on very competitive team. Its going to be a street fight between Boston, Washington, Clevleand and the Raps.

              Can't wait.
              Last edited by Demographic Shift; Mon Jul 24th, 2017, 04:06 PM.

              Comment


              • Cleveland still has LeBron. Until that changes the only thing "unraveling" will be our defense when he's torching us if we meet them.

                When/if he leaves the East basically becomes what it was from like 2001-2003, where some really mediocre Nets and Sixers teams went to the finals and got absolutely pasted.

                I could see us losing in 3 to the Warriors. Like they would score enough in 3 games to beat our 4 game total on aggregate.

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                • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                  Cleveland still has LeBron. Until that changes the only thing "unraveling" will be our defense when he's torching us if we meet them.

                  When/if he leaves the East basically becomes what it was from like 2001-2003, where some really mediocre Nets and Sixers teams went to the finals and got absolutely pasted.

                  I could see us losing in 3 to the Warriors. Like they would score enough in 3 games to beat our 4 game total on aggregate.
                  Getting to the finals alone would bring a tear to my eye.. doesn't matter how it happens.

                  Comment


                  • Maury wrote: View Post
                    I do think it's an improvement just because now they can stagger two guys who can run an offence likely the whole game, similar to what we do with Kyle and Demar. The good thing about Hayward is he doesn't give up much on the other side as well. Again, it's not a major improvement in my eyes, but it does make them a bit better on offence but the loss of Bradley is gonna hurt a lot.
                    Bradley was a net negative from what I recall.. so losing him may not be that big of a deal. I think the bigger problem for them is that they have no depth up front. Horford is older and after him they'll have to use either Baynes or Morris at center. That's a big problem. For their sakes I hope they shoot efficiently otherwise they won't get many second chance opportunities.

                    Although I think it will be a tight race between 1-5 (with Milwaukee competing in that pack between Cleveland, Boston, Washington and Toronto). Whether Kyrie is in Cleveland or not it won't matter when it comes to the playoffs.. but in the regular season I could see Cleveland taking a hit. They may end up as 3rd or 4th when its over.

                    Comment


                    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                      Cleveland still has LeBron. Until that changes the only thing "unraveling" will be our defense when he's torching us if we meet them.

                      When/if he leaves the East basically becomes what it was from like 2001-2003, where some really mediocre Nets and Sixers teams went to the finals and got absolutely pasted.

                      I could see us losing in 3 to the Warriors. Like they would score enough in 3 games to beat our 4 game total on aggregate.
                      Lebron on his own might resemble OKC with Westbrook. Two teams betting it all on the abilities of a single guy to beat the other team night after night after night. If anyone can do it.. .its James but James will be 33 this year this year and if Irving leaves for futures a James led team without Irving to hit threes and handle the ball can be outflanked.

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                      • S.R. wrote: View Post
                        I'd definitely argue with Ibaka in, Carroll out, + the young guys it's a net gain for the 82 game schedule . I don't understand predicting a step back in the W/L.
                        I mean the thing is you know what ppat/tucker/ross/cojo were going to bring last year, whereas you hope that these young guys become good rotation players. None of them have priven anything over anything more than a couple game stretch. I think they will be good enough, but im not sold on any of these guys making a big leap.

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                        • DogeLover1234 wrote: View Post
                          I mean the thing is you know what ppat/tucker/ross/cojo were going to bring last year, whereas you hope that these young guys become good rotation players. None of them have priven anything over anything more than a couple game stretch. I think they will be good enough, but im not sold on any of these guys making a big leap.
                          See, we thought we knew what Pat, Ross and CoJo would bring. Ross probably exceeded expectations up until he was traded. But Patterson was hurt and then shrank into the background after Ibaka came on and never found his groove after that. And Joseph had a significantly worse season defensively until he had a nice bounce back stretch run with Lowry out (which he reverted back from pretty quickly when Lowry returned). Tucker we obviously didn't have until the break and couldn't possibly know exactly what he brought within the team concept until we saw it in action.

                          Siakam and Poeltl at least played a chunk of minutes last year, and looked good in the right circumstances (ie when they weren't starting for no reason). There is some risk they don't play well, but there's just as much upside that they'll play better than expected. As small minutes role players off the bench, I'm not concerned. Wright is probably the area of greatest impact, taking over Joseph's minutes, so therein lies the major boom or bust replacement. Powell we can say with confidence at this point can handle a supporting role - the hope lies in him taking on the starting minutes and proving he can be as valuable there as he seemed last year.

                          So, you are right - there is risk there, in expecting things from the young guys. But I think for every risk of a player falling short of expectations, there's a) a chance they exceed them instead and b) another young player ready to step in if they fail (such as Nogueira, OG, Bruno and Van Vleet), essentially a second crack at the odds.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • Look at the numbers.
                            JV has the best shooting percentage on the team. (56%)
                            JV was only given the ball an average of 9 times per game and got 12 points.
                            - Ibaka needed 12 touches to score 14
                            - DD needed 22 to score 27
                            - KL was more efficient with 15 touches to get 22 pts.
                            Conclusion: Kyle need to feed JV the ball!
                            Even if you give him 5 more touches a game, that's can get JV to 20 point land.
                            One shot less from DD, Ibaka and KL and give it to JV.
                            HOW MANY WAYS DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?!?!

                            Comment


                            • retrofishy wrote: View Post
                              Look at the numbers.
                              JV has the best shooting percentage on the team. (56%)
                              JV was only given the ball an average of 9 times per game and got 12 points.
                              - Ibaka needed 12 touches to score 14
                              - DD needed 22 to score 27
                              - KL was more efficient with 15 touches to get 22 pts.
                              Conclusion: Kyle need to feed JV the ball!
                              Even if you give him 5 more touches a game, that's can get JV to 20 point land.
                              One shot less from DD, Ibaka and KL and give it to JV.
                              HOW MANY WAYS DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?!?!
                              In a vacuum this makes sense. It will be interesting to see if the Raps change their offense for the 2017/18 season, what they have been doing has become stagnant. Does that mean include JV more, maybe, but something has to change.
                              Last edited by WJF; Tue Jul 25th, 2017, 09:00 AM.
                              Twitter @WJ_FINDLAY

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                              • retrofishy wrote: View Post
                                Look at the numbers.
                                JV has the best shooting percentage on the team. (56%)
                                JV was only given the ball an average of 9 times per game and got 12 points.
                                - Ibaka needed 12 touches to score 14
                                - DD needed 22 to score 27
                                - KL was more efficient with 15 touches to get 22 pts.
                                Conclusion: Kyle need to feed JV the ball!
                                Even if you give him 5 more touches a game, that's can get JV to 20 point land.
                                One shot less from DD, Ibaka and KL and give it to JV.
                                HOW MANY WAYS DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?!?!
                                Like this hasn't been obvious for years now.

                                Wishing for JV to be involved more is like wishing the Tooth Fairy was real.
                                It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

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