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  • At the end of the day some people just have a clear agenda with Valanciunas. Doesn't matter what evidence there is, it will never be justified in their minds to move him to the bench. And the same sets of data will always be interpreted in favor of starting him even when they don't indicate that's necessarily the right way to go about things.

    If you want to talk about maximizing the team and our players. You have a guy who can contribute a lot offensively, particularly in pick and roll and in the post. He can likely handle a 25%+ usage typical of a sixth man (Kanter's at over 27% in OKC) and produce a lot of offense while really helping Norm and Wright and co. off the bench. That kind of offensive workload will not come when a significant portion of his minutes are played with three guys ahead of him in the pecking order. That's where Poeltl would fit in better. We drafted him because he has two way potential and already looked quite good last year defensively. However, he has nowhere near Val's offensive game at the moment, for now, offensively he's mainly just a garbageman who will take baskets as they come, and tbh that's what we need with Lowry-DD-Ibaka soaking up ~80% usage on their own.

    We say he's not utilized properly on offense and doesn't have a big enough role. Well this is how he can get a bigger role in the offense. Playing more with Wright especially, who's definitely going to be looking to him more offensively in those bench units than Joseph would have been, and limiting the minutes where he's on the court with our 1st, 2nd and 3rd options offensively.

    Reality is he is a net minus player defensively at a position where that can't really be afforded unless you are an offensive juggernaut (Towns, Jokic, etc). As a 6th man that becomes less of an issue which is why we've seen that done with comparable guys to JV like Monroe and Kanter.

    EDIT:
    What's funny and hypocritical about this is, that if JV was carrying a 34% usage and scoring 27ppg with 2 other starters scoring 20ppg and 15ppg with high usage, and DeMar was the 4th option offensively, people would definitely be advocating for moving him to a 6th man role.
    Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Fri Sep 1, 2017, 09:42 AM.

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    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
      At the end of the day some people just have a clear agenda with Valanciunas. Doesn't matter what evidence there is, it will never be justified in their minds to keep him in the starting lineup.
      Corrected for you

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      • BadDinosaur wrote: View Post
        Corrected for you
        Circumstances have changed. If we still had 2Pat/Scola or 2Pat/Siakam (and 2Pat was coming off the bench like he was) I wouldn't advocate for JV to be 6th man because we'd need his offense as the 3rd option in the starting 5. However we have Ibaka now who is clearly the 3rd option ahead of JV. His offensive utility is marginalized as a starter, which makes him even less capable of making up for his below-average defense.

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        • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
          Circumstances have changed. If we still had 2Pat/Scola or 2Pat/Siakam (and 2Pat was coming off the bench like he was) I wouldn't advocate for JV to be 6th man because we'd need his offense as the 3rd option in the starting 5. However we have Ibaka now who is clearly the 3rd option ahead of JV. His offensive utility is marginalized as a starter, which makes him even less capable of making up for his below-average defense.
          Much like a floor spacer, a PnR threat doesn't need the ball to impact the offence. So long as he's providing that roll threat, he bends defences. As for usage, every starter takes a step back in usage while starting, such is life. JV should get more individual looks in (ideally) his minutes with the Lowry bench unit. All evidence suggests he wouldn't in the DeRozan bench unit, so I'm not sure why one would want him playing there.
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • Ibaka will get his shots, but he shouldn't really be considered the 3rd option. He's a defence-oriented kick out/pick and pop guy. How was the shot distribution between the two of them last year?

            Poeltl and especially Ibaka can not set screens like JV.

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            • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
              Ibaka will get his shots, but he shouldn't really be considered the 3rd option. He's a defence-oriented kick out/pick and pop guy. How was the shot distribution between the two of them last year?

              Poeltl and especially Ibaka can not set screens like JV.
              He's definitely going to be the 3rd option.

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              • I dont really care who starts. As long as Ibaka atleast sees half his minutes at C. I do agree that the D would be better with either one of Yak/Siakam in the starting unit. We need JV to start for now so we can showcase him more. This is most likely his last year on the team. I'm hoping that by deadline we could get shooter/pick for him. Something like Danny Green/pick from Spurs.

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                @Chr1st1anL

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                • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                  I dont really care who starts. As long as Ibaka atleast sees half his minutes at C. I do agree that the D would be better with either one of Yak/Siakam in the starting unit. We need JV to start for now so we can showcase him more. This is most likely his last year on the team. I'm hoping that by deadline we could get shooter/pick for him. Something like Danny Green/pick from Spurs.

                  Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                  I actually think we could showcase JV better as a 6th man bench scorer tbh. But I see your point.

                  Danny Green is pretty meh offensively now.

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                  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                    I actually think we could showcase JV better as a 6th man bench scorer tbh. But I see your point.

                    Danny Green is pretty meh offensively now.
                    Just thinking of teams that would be in need of a center by deadline. They have Gasol but, he is old and declining. I believe JV is better than him right now.

                    Danny Green is meh but, is still a shooter/good defender. Still holds the record for most made 3s in Finals I believe. A bench unit of Wright/Green/CJ/KJ/Yak would be really good in my opinion.

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                    @Chr1st1anL

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                    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                      He's definitely going to be the 3rd option.
                      All signs from last season suggest that JV and Ibaka will be essentially co-third-options. After the all-star break, Serge carried a 21% usage to JV's 19%, and in the playoffs they carried 23% and 22% usage respectively. In the regular season, JV carried a 19% usage with Ibaka on the floor with him, and 20% usage without him. Same story in the playoffs - 21% with, 23% without. Tiny differences.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • JV for Danny Green? lol thank god you're not the GM.
                        Mamba Mentality

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                        • TRex wrote: View Post
                          JV for Danny Green? lol thank god you're not the GM.
                          He wanted D Mo 2 years ago,too.

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                          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                            At the end of the day some people just have a clear agenda with Valanciunas. Doesn't matter what evidence there is, it will never be justified in their minds to move him to the bench. And the same sets of data will always be interpreted in favor of starting him even when they don't indicate that's necessarily the right way to go about things.

                            If you want to talk about maximizing the team and our players. You have a guy who can contribute a lot offensively, particularly in pick and roll and in the post. He can likely handle a 25%+ usage typical of a sixth man (Kanter's at over 27% in OKC) and produce a lot of offense while really helping Norm and Wright and co. off the bench. That kind of offensive workload will not come when a significant portion of his minutes are played with three guys ahead of him in the pecking order. That's where Poeltl would fit in better. We drafted him because he has two way potential and already looked quite good last year defensively. However, he has nowhere near Val's offensive game at the moment, for now, offensively he's mainly just a garbageman who will take baskets as they come, and tbh that's what we need with Lowry-DD-Ibaka soaking up ~80% usage on their own.

                            We say he's not utilized properly on offense and doesn't have a big enough role. Well this is how he can get a bigger role in the offense. Playing more with Wright especially, who's definitely going to be looking to him more offensively in those bench units than Joseph would have been, and limiting the minutes where he's on the court with our 1st, 2nd and 3rd options offensively.

                            Reality is he is a net minus player defensively at a position where that can't really be afforded unless you are an offensive juggernaut (Towns, Jokic, etc). As a 6th man that becomes less of an issue which is why we've seen that done with comparable guys to JV like Monroe and Kanter.

                            EDIT:
                            What's funny and hypocritical about this is, that if JV was carrying a 34% usage and scoring 27ppg with 2 other starters scoring 20ppg and 15ppg with high usage, and DeMar was the 4th option offensively, people would definitely be advocating for moving him to a 6th man role.

                            You hardly ever see 6th man centres for a reason. Rotationally it rarely makes sense, and is only a last resort. OKC does it with Kanter because they fucked up thinking he could play next to Adams.

                            Also consider that JV is on the block and moving him to the bench has negative implications for his already-low trade value.

                            Your arguments are reasonable but there are much bigger overriding factors at play here. At the end of the day whether JV is a starter or not isn't likely to matter because Casey will sit him for Ibaka as soon as he can.

                            Comment


                            • TRex wrote: View Post
                              JV for Danny Green? lol thank god you're not the GM.
                              rocwell wrote: View Post
                              He wanted D Mo 2 years ago,too.
                              And a pick. You guys know that no wants JV right? Which is why he is still on the team after being shopped this summer. Really dont know what you guys are expecting out of a JV trade. Getting serviceable player and pick would good return for where his value is right now.

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                              Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Fri Sep 1, 2017, 02:52 PM.
                              @Chr1st1anL

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                              • DanH wrote: View Post
                                All signs from last season suggest that JV and Ibaka will be essentially co-third-options. After the all-star break, Serge carried a 21% usage to JV's 19%, and in the playoffs they carried 23% and 22% usage respectively. In the regular season, JV carried a 19% usage with Ibaka on the floor with him, and 20% usage without him. Same story in the playoffs - 21% with, 23% without. Tiny differences.
                                That's without a traning camp. Also JV came off the bench in a lot of games in the playoffs. Where he was the main option. With Norm starting I could see him taking shots from JV too. In Masai's most recent presser he said he wants JV to focus on offensive glass and finishing around the basket. Doesn't sound like someone who is going to have a big role on O.

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                                Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Fri Sep 1, 2017, 02:54 PM.
                                @Chr1st1anL

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