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  • DanH wrote: View Post
    Consider this:

    JV and Siakam together were an issue last season.

    But... Siakam and JV:

    With DD: 515 MP, -10 net rating
    With DD without Lowry: 67 MP, -7.4 net rating
    Without DD: 63 MP, +19.7 net rating

    So... plan A is to run JV out for half his minutes with both Siakam and DD as part of the bench unit? Wonderful idea.
    Yes an issue against starters, bad argument.

    Comment


    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
      I'm actually not just copy pasting what other teams are doing. I'm looking at our situation and a strategy that's been used effectively elsewhere and seeing how we can apply it.

      You're providing evidence yes, so have I, but you haven't done it in any sort of conclusive way. You've focused on lineup stats which don't really show anything one way or the other regarding starting JV or bringing him off the bench. In my case we have very little data of Poeltl actually starting, so it's difficult to try to apply those numbers (you attacked viciously when I even dared to bring up the 2-man lineup Ibaka-Poeltl numbers). Other than that we saw JV come off the bench in the playoffs where he was very effective and had 2 of his highest usage and scoring games.

      Even in your article you can't draw any concrete conclusions, and the conclusion you try to draw with JV playing with DeMar vs. Kyle off the bench is largely irrelevant. The point is he's coming off the bench in both circumstances and is the 2nd option rather than 4th which allows his main asset (offensive game) to be utilized better. The problem is with every stat you reference you're starting from the frame of "JV has to start" so it's hard to even accept other ideas.

      Other people like Kevin Pelton, Zach Lowe, Nate Duncan, all very reliable advanced statistics based writers have suggested the Raptors try this.
      But my entire argument with Poeltl is that we have no evidence he can succeed (and little evidence that he can't) - while we have piles of evidence that in the right lineups JV has been incredibly successful. I'm not arguing we have evidence that Poeltl can't start - just that he's a sophomore with a better, more established, and more proven option in front of him who does have plenty of evidence he can start.

      Again, you say "second option versus fourth" like it means something. The reality is he only really saw a bump in usage (ie, moving up from 4th option to 2nd) when with the Lowry bench, not with the DeRozan bench.

      I start from the frame of reference of what actually happened in reality. Not some predetermined conclusion. And I'd thank you to stop accusing me of it. If you have this pile of proof that JV cannot and should not be starting, and would be far better off, as would the team, coming off the bench, please show me. I'm not impossible to convince of things. I just like to be actually convinced, rather than have people proclaim themselves right with no evidence, then accuse my every honest attempt at debate as a biased failure to examine the actual evidence, besides my own, none of which has been provided.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

      Comment


      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
        Yes an issue against starters, bad argument.
        Oh, so JV and Siakam played with DD, but without Lowry, against starters, that's why they posted a -7 net rating? Try again.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

        Comment


        • At the end of the day if we aren't bringing JV off the bench to maximize his effectiveness offensively then he needs to be traded. We have a huge need right now for a small-ball 4 who can shoot and defend big 3s/quick shooters at the 4 spot. If we aren't going to start Poeltl over him then the best move is to try and get one of those guys for him.

          All he provides is rebounding and good screens next to three high usage players, and it's questionable how valuable that actually is. Poeltl is also a great screener and our rebounding with JV off the floor is pretty much just as good as with him on (because he hurts our defense so guys are out of position for boards, so even though he gets more, the team can't win those battles and gets less in return).

          Comment


          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
            At the end of the day if we aren't bringing JV off the bench to maximize his effectiveness offensively then he needs to be traded. We have a huge need right now for a small-ball 4 who can shoot and defend big 3s/quick shooters at the 4 spot. If we aren't going to start Poeltl over him then the best move is to try and get one of those guys for him.

            All he provides is rebounding and good screens next to three high usage players, and it's questionable how valuable that actually is. Poeltl is also a great screener and our rebounding with JV off the floor is pretty much just as good as with him on (because he hurts our defense so guys are out of position for boards, so even though he gets more, the team can't win those battles and gets less in return).
            A threat on the roll completely changes how the defence can play the actions on which he is the screener. Poeltl is definitely not that yet. Hopefully in time he will be. It's not as simple as "he just sets screens."

            Why does the team need to do anything? Why would him being part of lineups that smash other teams be a bad thing, even if he's not used to his full offensive potential? Like, if you are thinking he would have some great trade return because of that offensive potential, then I guess it makes sense, but surely you don't think that.

            And I understand if you think he would not be part of lineups that smash the other team, but again I'd love to see some evidence for that - he's been part of some great lineups that have played primarily against starting and closing opposition over the past two seasons, and really the only lineups where he's consistently struggled have been where he was tied to the boat anchor PF's of the past two seasons (and the same description is true of Lowry and DeMar).
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

            Comment


            • Watching Dan H CONSISTENTLY show evidence and try his hardest to explain why JV coming off the bench won't help because he'll be playing alongside Demar and the bench a lot while Shaolin just doesn't get it is painful man lol. JV DOES NOT GET MORE TOUCHES COMING OFF THE BENCH! Stats prove it, it's not some made up thing Dan H is spewing. So if the point of JV coming off the bench is for him to have more touches, him coming off the bench will not do that ON OUR TEAM. History proves it and stats prove it. I'm so confused as to what's so hard to understand lol.

              Stop looking at what OKC and the bucks do. They are a completely different team, with a completely different coach, with a completely different system with completely different players. On OUR team JV coming off the bench doesn't get him more touches and he plays horribly with demar and the bench. If he starts he can still get to play with the bench but it will be with LOWRY and the bench, which history and stats have shown he plays well with. Dan H you're good man. I could never be going back and forth like this. Especially with something that's so easy to understand lol.

              People are out here acting like Jakob has proven so much. The man barely played last season like chill. Let him prove he deserves to start over JV before we go giving him the starter role. And I'm not even some big JV fan but gawdamn the reading comprehension on here sometimes is non existent LOL. Anyway I won't be going on about this anymore, it's pointless.
              I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

              Comment


              • GLF wrote: View Post
                Watching Dan H CONSISTENTLY show evidence and try his hardest to explain why JV coming off the bench won't help because he'll be playing alongside Demar and the bench a lot while Shaolin just doesn't get it is painful man lol. JV DOES NOT GET MORE TOUCHES COMING OFF THE BENCH! Stats prove it, it's not some made up thing Dan H is spewing. So if the point of JV coming off the bench is for him to have more touches, him coming off the bench will not do that ON OUR TEAM. History proves it and stats prove it. I'm so confused as to what's so hard to understand lol.

                Stop looking at what OKC and the bucks do. They are a completely different team, with a completely different coach, with a completely different system with completely different players. On OUR team JV coming off the bench doesn't get him more touches and he plays horribly with demar and the bench. If he starts he can still get to play with the bench but it will be with LOWRY and the bench, which history and stats have shown he plays well with. Dan H you're good man. I could never be going back and forth like this. Especially with something that's so easy to understand lol.

                People are out here acting like Jakob has proven so much. The man barely played last season like chill. Let him prove he deserves to start over JV before we go giving him the starter role. And I'm not even some big JV fan but gawdamn the reading comprehension on here sometimes is non existent LOL. Anyway I won't be going on about this anymore, it's pointless.
                Stats do not prove that JV shouldn't come off the bench. And people are allowed to disagree with DanH his word isn't law. There are professionals out there who agree with my opinion on the issue as well. To just act like his view is the only correct one to have is false.

                If you're not allowed to do anything other than pay fealty to him because he's a writer for the site or whatever, then I'll gladly leave somewhere where it's ok to have a differing opinion.
                Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Wed Sep 6, 2017, 12:46 AM.

                Comment


                • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                  Stats do not prove that JV shouldn't come off the bench. And people are allowed to disagree with DanH his word isn't law. There are professionals out there who agree with my opinion on the issue as well. To just act like his view is the only correct one to have is false.

                  If you're not allowed to do anything other than pay fealty to him because he's a writer for the site or whatever, then I'll gladly leave somewhere where it's ok to have a differing opinion.
                  Differ away Shaolin differ away. I don't understand how the stats he's shown don't prove that JV is better off starting but hey that's just me. I appreciate your contribution to this site so I would rather you not leave. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. The season and play of JV and Jakob will prove or disprove everything anyway so let's just wait until then.
                  I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

                  Comment


                  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                    Stats do not prove that JV shouldn't come off the bench. And people are allowed to disagree with DanH his word isn't law. There are professionals out there who agree with my opinion on the issue as well. To just act like his view is the only correct one to have is false.

                    If you're not allowed to do anything other than pay fealty to him because he's a writer for the site or whatever, then I'll gladly leave somewhere where it's ok to have a differing opinion.
                    I'm not a writer for the site.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

                    Comment


                    • Valanciunas is balling against Germany. 23 PTS / 14 REB, two mins to go




                      Lithuania is known for lead in actions.
                      Last edited by rocwell; Wed Sep 6, 2017, 10:26 AM.

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                      • JV finished with 27 PTS, 15 REB. Lithuania won the group and advance to Round 16.

                        Comment


                        • Game high +23 for JV (in +/-) in a 89-72 win over Germany. Every time he was on the floor, Lithuania made a run, he's off Germany makes a run. JV was dominant in this one.

                          Comment


                          • Good to hear! Is Germany a good team this year?
                            I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

                            Comment


                            • GLF wrote: View Post
                              Good to hear! Is Germany a good team this year?
                              They're mediocre atm. Up and coming team. They have big lads who can hold their own against JV + Schroder

                              Comment


                              • rocwell wrote: View Post
                                Valanciunas is balling against Germany. 23 PTS / 14 REB, two mins to go




                                Lithuania is known for lead in actions.
                                JV is killing it so far at Euro. A new coach for Lithuania seems to have made a positive difference for JV. Actually knows how to use a post-up big.

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