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  • Actually, looking at the roster for this year,

    I would say the top 8 are:

    1. Lowry
    2. JV
    3. DeRozan (asuming he passing the ball more)
    4. Ibaka (a bit of wishful thinking perhaps)
    5. Miles
    6. Norm
    7. Bebe (1000+ pretty great minutes last year)
    8. Wright (could easily move up with more minutes)

    EDIT: Bebe could lose his spot to Yak.
    Last edited by Quirk; Fri Sep 8, 2017, 05:37 AM.

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    • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
      Raps are bulding this team around Deebo. JV doesn't compliment his game. This is definitely JV's last year on the team.

      Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
      JV complements his game just fine - just not without lots of floor spacing around them. It's true of any big man that is an inside presence - without lots of shooting around the pair, DeRozan will get his driving lanes cramped. That's why them playing beside each other as starters makes perfect sense (with Lowry and Ibaka on the floor with them), but with the bench makes no sense at all (with Miles being likely the only shooter off the bench, assuming Powell starts).
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • DanH wrote: View Post
        JV complements his game just fine - just not without lots of floor spacing around them. It's true of any big man that is an inside presence - without lots of shooting around the pair, DeRozan will get his driving lanes cramped. That's why them playing beside each other as starters makes perfect sense (with Lowry and Ibaka on the floor with them), but with the bench makes no sense at all (with Miles being likely the only shooter off the bench, assuming Powell starts).
        Then put Miles in the bench unit and play JV with DeMar off the bench.

        Starters: Lowry/DD/Powell/Ibaka/Poeltl

        Bench Units: Delon/DeMar/Miles/Siakam/JV and Delon/Lowry/Miles/Siakam/JV

        Get Pascal working on his corner 3. Run spread pick and roll with the guards off the bench with JV as the #2 option in those units, and give him some post up plays to the extent that he can handle them.

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        • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
          Then put Miles in the bench unit and play JV with DeMar off the bench.

          Starters: Lowry/DD/Powell/Ibaka/Poeltl

          Bench Units: Delon/DeMar/Miles/Siakam/JV and Delon/Lowry/Miles/Siakam/JV

          Get Pascal working on his corner 3. Run spread pick and roll with the guards off the bench with JV as the #2 option in those units, and give him some post up plays to the extent that he can handle them.
          I really don't see Delon/DeMar/Miles/Siakam/JV as an effective unit. Not nearly enough shooting to keep defenses from simply clogging the lane. Siakam at the 4 without Lowry on the court seems like a bad combo.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • Axel wrote: View Post
            I really don't see Delon/DeMar/Miles/Siakam/JV as an effective unit. Not nearly enough shooting to keep defenses from simply clogging the lane. Siakam at the 4 without Lowry on the court seems like a bad combo.
            But it'd be more effective with JV because he can at least shoot from mid-range a little bit and gives you another offensive weapon. With Poeltl you have even less spacing in that unit and it's going to be really bad offensively.

            Not to mention that I'm pretty sure Casey is going to start Miles. That means for about 12 minutes a game we are going to see Wright/DD/Powell/Siakam/Poeltl on the floor. Unless the 4 youngsters there turn into elite defenders quickly, this lineup is going to be so bad offensively that it loses by like 10 in the netRTG column while it's on the floor. We need another offensive weapon like JV in that unit to make it not a complete joke on that end. Wright is even more reluctant of a shooter than Joseph was, and 2Pat is no longer in that lineup to open up lanes a bit.

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            • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
              Then put Miles in the bench unit and play JV with DeMar off the bench.

              Starters: Lowry/DD/Powell/Ibaka/Poeltl

              Bench Units: Delon/DeMar/Miles/Siakam/JV and Delon/Lowry/Miles/Siakam/JV

              Get Pascal working on his corner 3. Run spread pick and roll with the guards off the bench with JV as the #2 option in those units, and give him some post up plays to the extent that he can handle them.
              JV is the second best player on the team after Lowry, whereas DeRozan is a distant third. Why on earth would you pull JV out of the starting lineup?

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              • Quirk wrote: View Post
                JV is the second best player on the team after Lowry, whereas DeRozan is a distant third. Why on earth would you pull JV out of the starting lineup?
                The fact that you think JV is better than DeRozan makes it not worthwhile to talk to you.

                However I'll entertain you. Just because a player is the 2nd best offensive player on the team (let's assume JV is for a moment) doesn't mean they should start. Jason Terry didn't start for Dallas' championship team.

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                • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                  But it'd be more effective with JV because he can at least shoot from mid-range a little bit and gives you another offensive weapon. With Poeltl you have even less spacing in that unit and it's going to be really bad offensively.

                  Not to mention that I'm pretty sure Casey is going to start Miles. That means for about 12 minutes a game we are going to see Wright/DD/Powell/Siakam/Poeltl on the floor. Unless the 4 youngsters there turn into elite defenders quickly, this lineup is going to be so bad offensively that it loses by like 10 in the netRTG column while it's on the floor. We need another offensive weapon like JV in that unit to make it not a complete joke on that end. Wright is even more reluctant of a shooter than Joseph was, and 2Pat is no longer in that lineup to open up lanes a bit.
                  See, you like to just say "yeah, but it will be better with JV" and completely ignore the data we have that shows it would very likely not be better at all. JV and DD couldn't work as a bench unit with Ross and Patterson spreading the floor, but you want them to work with just Miles as a credible shooter? Heck, even CoJo was more of a distance threat than Wright will likely be. You are now using JV as a floor spacing shooter, is the idea? Is there any evidence anywhere that JV's presence opens up the lane?

                  Meanwhile, if you stick to the high-energy, defence-first build for the bench that they've been running out (and having great success with) for two seasons, along with a little spacing and veteran leadership provided by Miles, that lineup should be fine with Poeltl at C. Now, throw Lowry's sharpshooting out there beside Miles and you are on to something with JV providing an offensive threat down low, but without that it's a recipe for disaster, based on the disasters of the past.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    See, you like to just say "yeah, but it will be better with JV" and completely ignore the data we have that shows it would very likely not be better at all. JV and DD couldn't work as a bench unit with Ross and Patterson spreading the floor, but you want them to work with just Miles as a credible shooter? Heck, even CoJo was more of a distance threat than Wright will likely be. You are now using JV as a floor spacing shooter, is the idea? Is there any evidence anywhere that JV's presence opens up the lane?

                    Meanwhile, if you stick to the high-energy, defence-first build for the bench that they've been running out (and having great success with) for two seasons, along with a little spacing and veteran leadership provided by Miles, that lineup should be fine with Poeltl at C. Now, throw Lowry's sharpshooting out there beside Miles and you are on to something with JV providing an offensive threat down low, but without that it's a recipe for disaster, based on the disasters of the past.
                    But the data we have doesn't show JV performing in lineups where he starts off in those units, rather than switching to them between games. Plus if Masai and Casey are really serious about changing the approach, we don't have any data for that either.

                    The data also shows that Poeltl-Ibaka was a better combination on both ends of the floor than JV-Ibaka. Yeah it's a small piece of data, but perhaps we should see where that goes.

                    Ibaka-JV: -1.8 netRTG
                    Ibaka-Poeltl: +8.2 netRTG

                    Poeltl and Pascal were also bad together with just a -3.1 rating.

                    Comment


                    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                      But the data we have doesn't show JV performing in lineups where he starts off in those units, rather than switching to them between games. Plus if Masai and Casey are really serious about changing the approach, we don't have any data for that either.

                      The data also shows that Poeltl-Ibaka was a better combination on both ends of the floor than JV-Ibaka. Yeah it's a small piece of data, but perhaps we should see where that goes.

                      Ibaka-JV: -1.8 netRTG
                      Ibaka-Poeltl: +8.2 netRTG

                      Poeltl and Pascal were also bad together with just a -3.1 rating.
                      Really? Come on man, enough with the bad faith arguments. We've gone over the specific lineup details of the causes of those net ratings in detail. You can't really think Poeltl and Pascal's net rating in largely garbage time minutes is of any real consequence to the discussion, can you?

                      Again, I don't understand the idea that since "perhaps" it could maybe work, with such limited and skewed evidence for it as to be laughable, then it is the right move, completely setting aside the mountain of data we have that shows that the alternative (starting JV, Poeltl coming off the bench) should work wonders.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                        But it'd be more effective with JV because he can at least shoot from mid-range a little bit and gives you another offensive weapon. With Poeltl you have even less spacing in that unit and it's going to be really bad offensively.

                        Not to mention that I'm pretty sure Casey is going to start Miles. That means for about 12 minutes a game we are going to see Wright/DD/Powell/Siakam/Poeltl on the floor. Unless the 4 youngsters there turn into elite defenders quickly, this lineup is going to be so bad offensively that it loses by like 10 in the netRTG column while it's on the floor. We need another offensive weapon like JV in that unit to make it not a complete joke on that end. Wright is even more reluctant of a shooter than Joseph was, and 2Pat is no longer in that lineup to open up lanes a bit.
                        Unfortunately, Siakam and Poeltl are going to have to play some minutes together because we don't have another capable PF on the roster behind Ibaka. But when they do, they pretty much have to play with Lowry or you're right, it will be awful offensively. Even with Lowry, it may be a struggle but he can at least score from the outside enough, that if paired with a capable wing (say Powell) then we should get by. It is a problem for this team, but not one I see solved with what you are suggesting.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • The data has showed that the Raptors starting units the past several years have been barely positive units. Even with Ibaka last year, the starting 5 minus Lowry was just +2.1 in 233 minutes post ASB (after the trade). With Lowry included (only 3 games of data) the lineup was -25.2, and it was abysmal in the playoffs also -24.7. We didn't start looking good in the playoffs until we moved JV to the bench (the new starting lineup with Powell inserted instead of JV was +17.4) and he himself also played better off the bench and helped those units offensively while getting more usage. In fact his best playoff game came off the bench in game 2 against the Cavs where he had a 33% usage rate and 23 points in 20 minutes.

                          In all likelihood we aren't going to try it to start the season, but I want to see it implemented. JV is not going to get the touches required to outweigh his defensive failings with the starters. He already wasn't getting enough starting next to Siakam last year, and now it's Ibaka who commands a lot of shots himself. He can have a better impact on the game and as a result improve the team overall from the bench, still playing about the same minutes but being a lot more productive offensively in that time.

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                          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                            JV is better than DeRozan
                            it's not even close, DeRozan is a league-average starting guard. JV is borderline star Center.

                            Not sure about Jason Terry, but why would you want JV not to start, I'm not saying that there can never be such reasons, just not clear on what they are?

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                            • Axel wrote: View Post
                              Unfortunately, Siakam and Poeltl are going to have to play some minutes together because we don't have another capable PF on the roster behind Ibaka. But when they do, they pretty much have to play with Lowry or you're right, it will be awful offensively. Even with Lowry, it may be a struggle but he can at least score from the outside enough, that if paired with a capable wing (say Powell) then we should get by. It is a problem for this team, but not one I see solved with what you are suggesting.
                              But if JV starts they will HAVE to play with DeMar unless we're going to play JV and Ibaka over 35 minutes per game each.

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                              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                                But if JV starts they will HAVE to play with DeMar unless we're going to play JV and Ibaka over 35 minutes per game each.
                                Considering some of the bench options we have, we might have to this year.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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