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  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    He didn't neutralize Monroe for Pete's sake. He did a better job defensively than he was doing as a starter. And most teams don't start traditional scoring bigs. The teams that have those guys for the most part bring them off the bench, except for the elite ones (Jokic, KAT, Gasol) all of whom JV cannot guard because he can't defend the perimeter at all and is too slow.
    Don't recall saying anything about traditional scoring bigs. I said big, non-shooting centres. The big guys are the ones Ibaka can't handle, and the ones Poeltl will have the most trouble with as well, his quickness being his strength.

    He didn't neutralize Monroe? Did we watch the same series? He did a far better job than Ibaka, that's for sure.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      Norm had a lower usage as a starter than off the bench last year. Heck, every one of the starters takes on a lower usage when playing with other starters (with a few exceptions, like DeMar in his bench units when JV is there).

      Like, look at DeMar. Sure, he carried a 34% usage last year. But when he shared the court with Lowry and JV? 31%. 43% when the two of them were off the court (ie his bench unit usage). Sure, Lowry carried a 25% usage on the year, but with the other two it was only 22%. Ibaka's usage was only 20% beside DeMar and JV. Norm carried a 21% usage on the year - and only 17% with Lowry, DeMar and JV on the court. Guys like JV and Norm and Serge and even Lowry don't need heavy usage to be effective weapons in the offence. Heck, JV carried basically identical usages with versus without Lowry and/or DeMar - between 18% and 21% right across the board, with only his "without DeMar" usage coming in as high as 23%. Heck, his raw "without Lowry" usage goes down, from 21% with him to 18% without him.

      The whole argument you make assumes the team would use JV as a primary option off the bench, which they obviously would not. He'll get a slightly inflated role with the Lowry unit if history is any indicator, but that's it.
      Like you said we don't have a huge sample of the new starting lineup (hopefully) Lowry-DD-Powell-Ibaka-JV. So I'm not sure how you can say he "obviously" would not get more touches off the bench. Your first points actually support my argument. Players have to reduce their usage when playing with other high usage guys. Jv's gonna be with 3 or 4 guys ahead of him in the pecking order.

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      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
        Like you said we don't have a huge sample of the new starting lineup (hopefully) Lowry-DD-Powell-Ibaka-JV. So I'm not sure how you can say he "obviously" would not get more touches off the bench. Your first points actually support my argument. Players have to reduce their usage when playing with other high usage guys. Jv's gonna be with 3 or 4 guys ahead of him in the pecking order.
        Yeah, except that JV has been used off the bench before, and in lineups that are bench lineups, and he doesn't see a usage increase (with one exception, a very modest increase with the Lowry bench, hence my suggestion he play with them even though he should start). Heck, in these past playoffs, JV posted a 22% usage as a starter and a 23% usage off the bench. Big swing, obviously he's getting a pile more chances to score off the bench...

        Stop with this pecking order nonsense. The team's not taking turns holding the ball so everyone is happy. There's a system that is primarily screen plays to set up guards to attack. That's not changing. JV should be used primarily as a screener and roll option. If he's consistently covered on the roll, then, yeah, the other guys will get the ball more, and the team will score more easily because the defence is paying attention to JV. If not, then they should hit him on the roll. Simple. And if it results in low usage, it means he's bending the defence with his presence on the roll - a threat presence no one else on the team can replicate. Mission accomplished. And yeah, in some matchups, he should get some post looks - but I expect that treatment for every player - if they have a real mismatch, the offence should exploit that, no matter who is on the floor.

        It's an ideal thought, but no more so than your concept that coming off the bench will inherently grant JV significantly more touches than when starting. There is no evidence to suggest that would be the case so long as DeMar is still out there.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • Wow, I can't even believe this is a conversation, there is no way that JV doesn't start.

          I can totally see an argument for trading JV, he's the team's most valuable asset, but given the teams perspective and playing style, I can accept an argument that says we can still make the second round with Ibaka, Peoltl, Bebe at 5, so given the value on the trade market compared to value to the team as it is now, it could make sense to trade him.

          But there is no way, short of injury, that he doesn't start so long as he is on the team. He is far and away our best big, even if you deny that he is the second best player on the team.
          Last edited by Quirk; Fri Sep 8, 2017, 04:47 PM.

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          • http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...basket/sn-amp/

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            @Chr1st1anL

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            • Good news:




              JV needs to be 100% healthy, rested and ready for training camp.
              Last edited by rocwell; Sat Sep 9, 2017, 05:20 PM.

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                • Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. I was a bit disappointed to see that his FIBA experience has come to an end for the year. Unlike Bruno though, who could've used a sustained good showing, JV's not really in need of more reps. Health is king.

                  Even though Lithuania didn't go far, I'm glad at least, after Jonas's negative outing there last year, that all the signs from this pass are so much more positive. Looking forward to big things from Jonas this year.

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                  • Quirk wrote: View Post
                    I can totally see an argument for trading JV, he's the team's most valuable asset.
                    I feel like I posted this already, but JV is not close to the team's most valuable asset at present. One year ago he might have been. Now his value is probably neutral at best, given that we tried to trade him to five teams and couldn't find a taker, forcing us to package two picks to dump Carroll, which had to have been a move of last resort.

                    This is not to say he can't play his way into greater value, but wishing for better utilization under Casey is a pipe dream at this point.

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                    • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                      Now his value is probably neutral at best, given that we tried to trade him to five teams and couldn't find a taker.
                      Sorry, there is absolutely zero question that JV is the team's most valuable trade asset: Salary/Performance/Age. No one else is close.

                      That we chose not to trade him given available offers, which we know nothing about, tells us nothing. He is also valuable to us.

                      Dumping Carroll has zero to do with trading JV.

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                      • Funny thing about this is that people actually did believe that JV was better than Deebo lmao.

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                        @Chr1st1anL

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                        • SI's top 100 NBA Players of 2018

                          https://www.si.com/nba/2017/09/11/to...-list-rankings

                          80. JONAS VALANCIUNAS, RAPTORS
                          There’s an unmistakable sadness to the flatlining of Valanciunas (12 PPG, 9.5 RPG), a huge, crafty and efficient scoring center whose signature skills aren’t truly essential to his team’s guard-dominated attack and whose defensive limitations make him an obvious demotion target in the postseason. The 25-year-old Lithuanian big man has posted nearly identical numbers for three straight seasons, a sign of his workhorse mentality and inherent dependability, but also of his carefully-carved niche and his inability to win an expanded role in crunch time. Moved to the bench midway through both of Toronto’s postseason series last year, Valanciunas averaged just 22.6 MPG in the playoffs, a career low. He is simply a casualty of basketball’s new style of war: The Raptors’ defensive rating was far better without him during both the regular season and the postseason, and midseason acquisition Serge Ibaka is a natural fit as a smallball center. While Valanciunas appeared to be an obvious trade chip, he survived president Masai Ujiri’s busy summer and will run things back for a sixth year in Toronto. If recent history is any indication, he’ll go about his Goliath-like business by flirting with a double-double average before ceding the court to more mobile Davids once the season is on the line. — BG
                          @Chr1st1anL

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                          • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                            Funny thing about this is that people actually did believe that JV was better than Deebo lmao.
                            That would be because he is. By a long shot.

                            SI "Top 100" rankings are just as silly as All-Star votes.

                            http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players...14&season=2016

                            100 points of WP48 between them.

                            Not only is JV better, he is younger has a much more team-friendly contract, and plays a more valuable position. There is no comparison at all.

                            Volume-shooting guards are a dime a dozen, DeRozan is better than most, but easily replaced.
                            Productive centers with elite scoring and rebounding are very valuable

                            This is why I agree with you that trading JV is an option. You won't get anything for DeRozan, given his salary.

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                            • Quirk wrote: View Post
                              ...Not only is JV better, he is younger has a much more team-friendly contract, and plays a more valuable position. There is no comparison at all...
                              Too bad for JV that those are not the foundations you build a team around. A mid-season trade is possible, if a team in the hunt loses a center and has some 3 pt shooters and a good defensive SF in the starting lineup. ...Oh wait!

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                              • Puffer wrote: View Post
                                Too bad for JV that those are not the foundations you build a team around. A mid-season trade is possible, if a team in the hunt loses a center and has some 3 pt shooters and a good defensive SF in the starting lineup. ...Oh wait!
                                75. DANNY GREEN, SPURS
                                Green plays in a way that draws a lot of attention to what he cannot do. He still has little recourse when opponents decide to run him off the three-point line, a predicament that pushes Green well out of his comfort zone. His perimeter shooting—Green’s (7.3 PPG, 3.3 RPG, 1.8 APG) most valuable contribution to an offense—is now in the midst of a two-year lull. Yet at minimum, Green is one of the most stifling defenders on the floor in every game he plays. Coaches can swing him freely to cover perimeter players of all kinds. Starting a defensive liability at point guard? Have Green corral opposing ones with his length instead. Need to preserve the energy of a ball-dominant creator? Cross-match Green to find the most advantageous matchup possible. The league has its share of defensive stoppers who undermine their own teams through offensive inability. Green is a cut above. Through cold streaks and all, he converted 38% of his three-pointers last season. — RM
                                Give Pau a couple months
                                @Chr1st1anL

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