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  • Spurs would be a great destination for JV. But not in terms of return for the Raptors. Who would they send back?

    Trading JV should be stocking assets for the post-Lowry era.

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    • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
      Funny thing about this is that people actually did believe that JV was better than Deebo lmao.

      Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
      At what point was JV ever better than DeMar? Maybe his rookie year they were close because JV came in pretty NBA-ready, that's about it.

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      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
        At what point was JV ever better than DeMar? Maybe his rookie year they were close because JV came in pretty NBA-ready, that's about it.
        DeMar was pretty awful in 14-15, so the argument was a valid one then. Luckily that year was a blip for DeMar and not a return to form.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
          At what point was JV ever better than DeMar? Maybe his rookie year they were close because JV came in pretty NBA-ready, that's about it.
          People use to make this arguement about if you gave JV the same usage as DD he would perform better. It really picked up after JV's playoff performance in 2016.

          Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
          @Chr1st1anL

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          • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
            People use to make this arguement about if you gave JV the same usage as DD he would perform better. It really picked up after JV's playoff performance in 2016.

            Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
            There's an argument to be made there, specifically in terms of efficiency. But even with that, the real difference is playmaking. JV hasn't been given any real chance to show he can pass well enough to run the offence through, but early in DeMar's career he was an awful playmaker considering his usage and the system, so there was upside to JV that DeMar hadn't shown yet. DeMar's improvement by leaps and bounds in that area has really changed the discussion - JV has been plenty productive in his role and should stay in it, now that DeMar has established his playmaking to a much more acceptable level than before.

            Playmaking remains the area I hope to see the most improvement from DeMar in, but he's nothing like he was early in his career in that regard, and the upside of JV in that area is far less enticing with DeMar having proven he can run the offence.

            That said, of course the team should still look to add variety to the offence in general and in specific play actions (specifically using the roll man more often, as a scorer or intermediary) to help prevent the playoff collapses we've seen. But the idea of centering an offence on JV should definitely be dead for this three year window at least.
            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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            • DanH wrote: View Post
              There's an argument to be made there, specifically in terms of efficiency. But even with that, the real difference is playmaking. JV hasn't been given any real chance to show he can pass well enough to run the offence through, but early in DeMar's career he was an awful playmaker considering his usage and the system, so there was upside to JV that DeMar hadn't shown yet. DeMar's improvement by leaps and bounds in that area has really changed the discussion - JV has been plenty productive in his role and should stay in it, now that DeMar has established his playmaking to a much more acceptable level than before.

              Playmaking remains the area I hope to see the most improvement from DeMar in, but he's nothing like he was early in his career in that regard, and the upside of JV in that area is far less enticing with DeMar having proven he can run the offence.

              That said, of course the team should still look to add variety to the offence in general and in specific play actions (specifically using the roll man more often, as a scorer or intermediary) to help prevent the playoff collapses we've seen. But the idea of centering an offence on JV should definitely be dead for this three year window at least.
              JV won't be here in 3 years.

              Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
              @Chr1st1anL

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              • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                JV won't be here in 3 years.

                Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                That may well be so. But the point is, the only scenario where we'll see him in a primary option role at this point is once this window closes and the team moves on (if they do) from DD/KL, if he's still here.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • Quirk wrote: View Post
                  Sorry, there is absolutely zero question that JV is the team's most valuable trade asset: Salary/Performance/Age. No one else is close.

                  That we chose not to trade him given available offers, which we know nothing about, tells us nothing. He is also valuable to us.

                  Dumping Carroll has zero to do with trading JV.

                  Not sure you're totally up to date on the team.

                  They spoke with several teams and a couple of them were willing to simply absorb the salary, according to sources, but the Raptors were reluctant to give Valanciunas away without recouping any value.
                  Value is what a team is willing to pay. That the offers included teams simply willing to eat his salary and not offer anything more tells us a great deal.

                  Also the Carroll deal has everything to do with this because we were forced to pay two picks to get rid of him and go under the luxury tax.
                  It’s Ogugua season. Time to gugua.

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    There's an argument to be made there, specifically in terms of efficiency. But even with that, the real difference is playmaking. JV hasn't been given any real chance to show he can pass well enough to run the offence through, but early in DeMar's career he was an awful playmaker considering his usage and the system, so there was upside to JV that DeMar hadn't shown yet. DeMar's improvement by leaps and bounds in that area has really changed the discussion - JV has been plenty productive in his role and should stay in it, now that DeMar has established his playmaking to a much more acceptable level than before.

                    Playmaking remains the area I hope to see the most improvement from DeMar in, but he's nothing like he was early in his career in that regard, and the upside of JV in that area is far less enticing with DeMar having proven he can run the offence.

                    That said, of course the team should still look to add variety to the offence in general and in specific play actions (specifically using the roll man more often, as a scorer or intermediary) to help prevent the playoff collapses we've seen. But the idea of centering an offence on JV should definitely be dead for this three year window at least.
                    There really isn't. There are two ways currently in the league that centers get that kind of usage/role. Either they do it off the bench like Kanter or Monroe, or they do it as starters when they have extremely diverse skillsets. I'm talking about guys like Jokic, KAT and Gasol who can step out and hit the three, take other bigs off the dribble, operate in the mid-range, have some dribble drive game and are great at creating for others as well. If all you can do is just a few basic moves in the post, pick and roll and rebound well with below average athleticism, no good team is handing you #1 option usage, and rightfully so.

                    The idea of centering an offence on JV should be dead permanently for any team actually trying to win games. Yeah, maybe in 3 years if he's still here and we're trying to tank that might be a smart move, but at that point I'd definitely rather have a younger guy like Poeltl playing (JV will be 28 by then).

                    Comment


                    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                      There really isn't. There are two ways currently in the league that centers get that kind of usage/role. Either they do it off the bench like Kanter or Monroe, or they do it as starters when they have extremely diverse skillsets. I'm talking about guys like Jokic, KAT and Gasol who can step out and hit the three, take other bigs off the dribble, operate in the mid-range, have some dribble drive game and are great at creating for others as well. If all you can do is just a few basic moves in the post, pick and roll and rebound well with below average athleticism, no good team is handing you #1 option usage, and rightfully so.

                      The idea of centering an offence on JV should be dead permanently for any team actually trying to win games. Yeah, maybe in 3 years if he's still here and we're trying to tank that might be a smart move, but at that point I'd definitely rather have a younger guy like Poeltl playing (JV will be 28 by then).
                      I couldn't care less what other teams are doing. No other team is running an offence around a DeMar DeRozan, hasn't stopped us, nor stopped us from being a powerhouse offence for years. Being a sheep is no fun. And basically anything can work given the right system and players.

                      It's all academic, of course, because the team is set up very well right now to continue the success they've had.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post
                        I couldn't care less what other teams are doing. No other team is running an offence around a DeMar DeRozan, hasn't stopped us, nor stopped us from being a regular season powerhouse offence for years. Being a sheep is no fun. And basically anything can work given the right system and players.

                        It's all academic, of course, because the team is set up very well right now to continue the regular season success they've had.
                        Fixed.

                        Comment


                        • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                          Value is what a team is willing to pay. That the offers included teams simply willing to eat his salary and not offer anything more tells us a great deal.

                          Also the Carroll deal has everything to do with this because we were forced to pay two picks to get rid of him and go under the luxury tax.
                          Neither of us has any clue what other teams offered. Young, yet proven, elite rebounding and scoring big men on team friendly contracts are extremely valuable assets, this is not a question. We have no other simular assets, Lowry is not young, DeRozan is not on a team-friendly contract, Poeltl is not proven.

                          Carroll was neither young nor productive, and not on a team-friendly contract. There is no comparison.

                          JV is our most valuable trade asset. SInce we're locked in to the Lowry/DeRozan/Casey era, which likely means 50 wins and a second round exit, and could be achieved without JV, there is a logic to trading him in order to build for the post-Lowry era.

                          So, is JV, currently, more valuable as a trade asset than an on-court asset to this team at this time?

                          Comment


                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            I couldn't care less what other teams are doing. No other team is running an offence around a DeMar DeRozan, hasn't stopped us, nor stopped us from being a powerhouse offence for years. Being a sheep is no fun. And basically anything can work given the right system and players.

                            It's all academic, of course, because the team is set up very well right now to continue the success they've had.
                            Actually what we're doing with DeRozan IS used by several teams in the league. It's called spread pick and roll offense. There's not really anything unique about it. Teams use their best driving and playmaking guards in the pick and roll to initiate their offense, it's one of the most common sets in the league right now.

                            You can "not care" about what other teams are doing all you like, doesn't mean that building an offense around JV isn't a terrible fucking idea.

                            Comment


                            • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                              Actually what we're doing with DeRozan IS used by several teams in the league. It's called spread pick and roll offense. There's not really anything unique about it. Teams use their best driving and playmaking guards in the pick and roll to initiate their offense, it's one of the most common sets in the league right now.

                              You can "not care" about what other teams are doing all you like, doesn't mean that building an offense around JV isn't a terrible fucking idea.
                              Initiating an offense out of spread pick & roll and then running options out of the initial action aren't really comparable to the point of saying, hey we are running the same offense as so & so, IMO.

                              Comment


                              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                                ...You can "not care" about what other teams are doing all you like, doesn't mean that building an offense around JV isn't a terrible fucking idea.
                                I think I missed the part where Dan suggested "building an offense around JV." Maybe you meant to say "incorporating him effectively in the offense."

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