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  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    It's actually shocking how much taking JV out of the starting lineup improved us in the playoffs.

    In 44 minutes with our regular starting lineup of Lowry-DD-Carroll-Ibaka-JV we were -24.7 netRTG with 105.6 oRTG and a putrid 130.3 dRTG. In about the same minutes (43) in the JV to the bench starting lineup of Lowry-DD-Powell-Carroll-Ibaka we got slightly better on offense (110.0 oRTG), way better on defense (92.6 dRTG) and way better overall +17.4 netRTG.

    Meanwhile, the idea that we would get killed on the glass didn't happen. We were worse on the offensive glass which is expected but shot 5% better in TS% to compensate, and we were better on the defensive glass and rebounding overall.

    Small sample size but it's also the ONLY sample we have of the new team with Lowry really and against tough competition in a playoff setting.
    We didn't get killed on the glass because we used that lineup against the 2nd worst rebounding team in the league.

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    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
      It's actually shocking how much taking JV out of the starting lineup improved us in the playoffs.

      In 44 minutes with our regular starting lineup of Lowry-DD-Carroll-Ibaka-JV we were -24.7 netRTG with 105.6 oRTG and a putrid 130.3 dRTG. In about the same minutes (43) in the JV to the bench starting lineup of Lowry-DD-Powell-Carroll-Ibaka we got slightly better on offense (110.0 oRTG), way better on defense (92.6 dRTG) and way better overall +17.4 netRTG.

      Meanwhile, the idea that we would get killed on the glass didn't happen. We were worse on the offensive glass which is expected but shot 5% better in TS% to compensate, and we were better on the defensive glass and rebounding overall.

      Small sample size but it's also the ONLY sample we have of the new team with Lowry really and against tough competition in a playoff setting.
      Yeah, MIL is a wacky matchup, with probably the smallest starting C in the league by far. Like I said, Ibaka can thrive in matchups against small opposition.

      And I've brought this up before, but the difference wasn't really JV not starting, but Norm starting.

      In that series, there were two lineups that got major minutes besides the original starting lineup, that had most of the starters in them.

      KL-DD-DC-SI-JV: 31 MP, 105.3 ORTG, 125.8 DRTG, -20.6 RTG
      KL-DD-NP-DC-SI: 43 MP, 110 ORTG, 92.6 DRTG, +17.4 RTG
      KL-DD-NP-PJT-JV: 21 MP, 138.4 ORTG, 106.6 DRTG, +31.9 RTG

      Notice how the JV group was just as effective (read: moreso) as the Ibaka group? This is with both stars out there, so that's no bench unit playing against lesser competition either.

      The biggest issue by far for the Raptors in that series was the star guards being stifled by the trapping defence. Throwing that third ball handler out there completely solved the issue, which killed the Bucks' transition attack that they were living off of.

      Now, it was still disappointing that JV couldn't take advantage of Maker on the boards to help balance that out like the previous year when Indy was trapping our guards, but we found a good use for him in the defensive matchup with Monroe (who was absolutely killing Ibaka, the other key weakness for the Raptors early in that series).
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • DanH wrote: View Post
        Yeah, MIL is a wacky matchup, with probably the smallest starting C in the league by far. Like I said, Ibaka can thrive in matchups against small opposition.

        And I've brought this up before, but the difference wasn't really JV not starting, but Norm starting.

        In that series, there were two lineups that got major minutes besides the original starting lineup, that had most of the starters in them.

        KL-DD-DC-SI-JV: 31 MP, 105.3 ORTG, 125.8 DRTG, -20.6 RTG
        KL-DD-NP-DC-SI: 43 MP, 110 ORTG, 92.6 DRTG, +17.4 RTG
        KL-DD-NP-PJT-JV: 21 MP, 138.4 ORTG, 106.6 DRTG, +31.9 RTG

        Notice how the JV group was just as effective (read: moreso) as the Ibaka group? This is with both stars out there, so that's no bench unit playing against lesser competition either.

        The biggest issue by far for the Raptors in that series was the star guards being stifled by the trapping defence. Throwing that third ball handler out there completely solved the issue, which killed the Bucks' transition attack that they were living off of.

        Now, it was still disappointing that JV couldn't take advantage of Maker on the boards to help balance that out like the previous year when Indy was trapping our guards, but we found a good use for him in the defensive matchup with Monroe (who was absolutely killing Ibaka, the other key weakness for the Raptors early in that series).
        I wouldn't consider 13 ppg through 6 games as "absolutely killing".
        @Chr1st1anL

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        • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
          I wouldn't consider 13 ppg through 6 games as "absolutely killing".
          It wasn't all 6 games, just the first 3.

          First 3 he was averaging 16 points and 8.7 rebounds (55% shooting) in just 23.6 minutes a night which is nuts.

          Last 3 games (after the adjustment), Monroe dropped to 10 points and 6 rebounds (50% shooting) in 23.4 minutes per.

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          • tDotted wrote: View Post
            We didn't get killed on the glass because we used that lineup against the 2nd worst rebounding team in the league.
            Regardless of who we were playing, our rebounding rate with the second lineup was BETTER than the first one. The competition is irrelevant to that. I'm comparing the rebounding rate between our two lineups.

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            • DanH wrote: View Post
              Yeah, MIL is a wacky matchup, with probably the smallest starting C in the league by far. Like I said, Ibaka can thrive in matchups against small opposition.

              And I've brought this up before, but the difference wasn't really JV not starting, but Norm starting.

              In that series, there were two lineups that got major minutes besides the original starting lineup, that had most of the starters in them.

              KL-DD-DC-SI-JV: 31 MP, 105.3 ORTG, 125.8 DRTG, -20.6 RTG
              KL-DD-NP-DC-SI: 43 MP, 110 ORTG, 92.6 DRTG, +17.4 RTG
              KL-DD-NP-PJT-JV: 21 MP, 138.4 ORTG, 106.6 DRTG, +31.9 RTG

              Notice how the JV group was just as effective (read: moreso) as the Ibaka group? This is with both stars out there, so that's no bench unit playing against lesser competition either.

              The biggest issue by far for the Raptors in that series was the star guards being stifled by the trapping defence. Throwing that third ball handler out there completely solved the issue, which killed the Bucks' transition attack that they were living off of.

              Now, it was still disappointing that JV couldn't take advantage of Maker on the boards to help balance that out like the previous year when Indy was trapping our guards, but we found a good use for him in the defensive matchup with Monroe (who was absolutely killing Ibaka, the other key weakness for the Raptors early in that series).
              How is Maker the smallest starting C in the league by far? He's 7'1 and has an absurd wingspan. Unless you're just talking about weight.

              The difference was a combination of Norm starting to add an extra ball handler, better mobility and thus way better defense in the starting 5 (which is backed up by the limited available lineup stats) and yes, JV's ability to match up with Monroe on both ends particularly 1 on 1 rebounding. Stop trying to give all the credit to JV, it was also the hiding of his negative attributes that greatly helped us.

              Comment


              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                How is Maker the smallest starting C in the league by far? He's 7'1 and has an absurd wingspan. Unless you're just talking about weight.

                The difference was a combination of Norm starting to add an extra ball handler, better mobility and thus way better defense in the starting 5 (which is backed up by the limited available lineup stats) and yes, JV's ability to match up with Monroe on both ends particularly 1 on 1 rebounding. Stop trying to give all the credit to JV, it was also the hiding of his negative attributes that greatly helped us.
                Yeah, but why then did that lineup with both Norm and JV have success? Because one change was far more impactful than the other for the starting group. JV definitely didn't match up well against Milwaukee's super small lineup (and you can't seriously believe Maker should be classified as a big C), but he wasn't the reason they were getting demolished. Otherwise they'd have kept getting demolished when he was out there with Powell. He struggled against the Bucks' transition offence (as you'd expect of a slow C), which disappeared when the Raptors got their shit together with a third ball handler.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • DanH wrote: View Post
                  Yeah, but why then did that lineup with both Norm and JV have success? Because one change was far more impactful than the other for the starting group. JV definitely didn't match up well against Milwaukee's super small lineup (and you can't seriously believe Maker should be classified as a big C), but he wasn't the reason they were getting demolished. Otherwise they'd have kept getting demolished when he was out there with Powell. He struggled against the Bucks' transition offence (as you'd expect of a slow C), which disappeared when the Raptors got their shit together with a third ball handler.
                  Casey was making matchup subs with JV and Monroe let's not forget. He deliberately tried to have JV on the floor the same time as him after game 3, and he did a great job in that matchup.

                  But if you want to conveniently ignore the other factors that's up to you. But the reality is the starting unit got way better defensively with him on the bench. Even compared to that 3rd unit, it was FOURTEEN points better defensively despite having Carroll as opposed to Tucker which is a massive gap in defensive capability.

                  That call was made for 3 key reasons:

                  1.) Get an extra ball handler in to break down the Bucks length on traps
                  2.) Get more mobility defensively and get JV's negative defense out of the starting unit
                  3.) Have JV match up almost exclusively with Monroe in order to control him on the glass and inside. Similar type of players except jV is better at what they do.

                  Comment


                  • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                    Casey was making matchup subs with JV and Monroe let's not forget. He deliberately tried to have JV on the floor the same time as him after game 3, and he did a great job in that matchup.

                    But if you want to conveniently ignore the other factors that's up to you. But the reality is the starting unit got way better defensively with him on the bench. Even compared to that 3rd unit, it was FOURTEEN points better defensively despite having Carroll as opposed to Tucker which is a massive gap in defensive capability.

                    That call was made for 3 key reasons:

                    1.) Get an extra ball handler in to break down the Bucks length on traps
                    2.) Get more mobility defensively and get JV's negative defense out of the starting unit
                    3.) Have JV match up almost exclusively with Monroe in order to control him on the glass and inside. Similar type of players except jV is better at what they do.
                    Yeah, and I don't argue with that. Except I'd place the order of importance as 1, 3, then quite a ways down to 2.

                    Heck, once they adjusted to get more ball handlers on the court, JV still matched up against Maker for 12 of his 61 minutes (20% of his playing time) in those final 3 games. Shockingly (not), the Raptors posted an 85 DRTG and a +45 net rating in those minutes. Somehow JV's negative defence just... stopped, regardless of whether he was matched up with Maker or Monroe. Wonder what changed in those final three games?
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • DanH wrote: View Post
                      Yeah, and I don't argue with that. Except I'd place the order of importance as 1, 3, then quite a ways down to 2.

                      Heck, once they adjusted to get more ball handlers on the court, JV still matched up against Maker for 12 of his 61 minutes (20% of his playing time) in those final 3 games. Shockingly (not), the Raptors posted an 85 DRTG and a +45 net rating in those minutes. Somehow JV's negative defence just... stopped, regardless of whether he was matched up with Maker or Monroe. Wonder what changed in those final three games?
                      I'd go 2, 1, 3.

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                      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                        I'd go 2, 1, 3.
                        Against all evidence? Of course you would.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • DanH wrote: View Post
                          Against all evidence? Of course you would.
                          How is it against all the evidence? I just presented plenty of evidence that supports my argument. It's also a similar step we had to take against Indiana btw, except it was Scola who was the biggest anchor that time (and thus got replaced) not JV. Even when he was next to Biyombo that lineup was fucking terrible (-23.2).

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                          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                            How is it against all the evidence? I just presented plenty of evidence that supports my argument. It's also a similar step we had to take against Indiana btw, except it was Scola who was the biggest anchor that time (and thus got replaced) not JV. Even when he was next to Biyombo that lineup was fucking terrible (-23.2).
                            So you just ignored my last post then? After the adjustment halfway through the series, JV still played against Maker, and the Raptors destroyed the Bucks in those minutes. JV's defence was not the determining factor in the series swinging, except as a positive matchup against Monroe compared to Ibaka.
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                            • Nothing against either of you too, but I can't wait for the new season to start. These Shaolin vs Dan summer reruns are boring me to death.
                              Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                              • JV didn't show up in ranks 50-100 of the ESPN panel. Given that he was at 53 last year I am not sure he is going to make the top 100, which is sort of crazy. By way of comparison, Andre Drummond dropped from 20 to 53.
                                It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

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