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  • JV needs to tell himself to get FOH.

    I could care less about Val's ranking, a lot of the blame goes on Casey's misuse and believe it or not just as much falls directly on Val's shoulders. The guy has barely developed his game since entering the league besides the fact that it should be painfully obvious to himself that the league is quicker and should be doing everything in his power to improve his speed and agility.

    What has he added to his game in his 5 years in the league?!

    He has been reliant on that God awful pump fake pretty much his whole existence in the league. By now his mid-range jumper should be absolute money and the 3 ball shouldn't be such an outlandish idea as a result. I really see no reason at all why his game couldn't closely resemble LMA's...well other than he has no trust in his jumpshot and seemingly hasn't been working as diligently on his game as he should.

    I don't mean sound hard on the guy because he's a great person, very niiiiice I like (as JV says with his Borat voice) but this kid should not be whining about his ranking when he's not getting the best out of himself either. Again I know Casey certainly deserves a lot of blame for his misuse and also a bit for his bruised confidence but it's on the player to improve....DeMar has comeback almost every year a little better, another skill or moves added to his arsenal. I don't see much difference if at all between 5th year JV vs 1st year JV other than added weight. The time to put up or shut up is now for him.

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    • Uhhh JV hasn't whined once about anything.
      Two beer away from being two beers away.

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      • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
        JV needs to tell himself to get FOH.

        I could care less about Val's ranking, a lot of the blame goes on Casey's misuse and believe it or not just as much falls directly on Val's shoulders. The guy has barely developed his game since entering the league besides the fact that it should be painfully obvious to himself that the league is quicker and should be doing everything in his power to improve his speed and agility.

        What has he added to his game in his 5 years in the league?!

        He has been reliant on that God awful pump fake pretty much his whole existence in the league. By now his mid-range jumper should be absolute money and the 3 ball shouldn't be such an outlandish idea as a result. I really see no reason at all why his game couldn't closely resemble LMA's...well other than he has no trust in his jumpshot and seemingly hasn't been working as diligently on his game as he should.

        I don't mean sound hard on the guy because he's a great person, very niiiiice I like (as JV says with his Borat voice) but this kid should not be whining about his ranking when he's not getting the best out of himself either. Again I know Casey certainly deserves a lot of blame for his misuse and also a bit for his bruised confidence but it's on the player to improve....DeMar has comeback almost every year a little better, another skill or moves added to his arsenal. I don't see much difference if at all between 5th year JV vs 1st year JV other than added weight. The time to put up or shut up is now for him.
        JV needs to tell himself to get the fuck out of here? What does that even mean? He's not whining about his ranking as far as I can see.

        Anyway, it's really hard for a player to develop new aspects of his game when he's given a card that says focus on rebounding and defense. When he doesn't get the ball when he's wide open. When he's pulled from the game when he makes a mistake. If Pop had done that with Kawhi Leonard, he might still be a defensive role player and nothing more.

        That said, I do think his footwork should have improved some by now. It is still too predictable.

        But going back to the rankings, there's a lot of recency bias if Nurkic is at 44. And it shows that Jonas could have a resurgence of placed in the right situation, although it's more evidence of Jonas's current perceived value if he can't crack the top 100.
        It's the Spicy Show! Time to cook.

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        • Scraptor wrote: View Post
          JV needs to tell himself to get the fuck out of here? What does that even mean? He's not whining about his ranking as far as I can see.

          Anyway, it's really hard for a player to develop new aspects of his game when he's given a card that says focus on rebounding and defense. When he doesn't get the ball when he's wide open. When he's pulled from the game when he makes a mistake. If Pop had done that with Kawhi Leonard, he might still be a defensive role player and nothing more.

          That said, I do think his footwork should have improved some by now. It is still too predictable.

          But going back to the rankings, there's a lot of recency bias if Nurkic is at 44. And it shows that Jonas could have a resurgence of placed in the right situation, although it's more evidence of Jonas's current perceived value if he can't crack the top 100.
          Actually Pop and the Spurs did have Kawhi focus specifically on D and 3PT shooting. He put in the work to add other things to his game to warrant going from the 4th option to the 1st.

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          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
            Actually Pop and the Spurs did have Kawhi focus specifically on D and 3PT shooting. He put in the work to add other things to his game to warrant going from the 4th option to the 1st.
            That's the point.

            It's not the coaching staff's responsibility (although they should have a vested interest) in a player improving their game. Not to mention as I stated even on our own roster, DeRozan is a clear example of this himself. It wasn't Casey developing him over the years, it was DeMar making his own personal commitment each summer to add things to his game. Even in a single year we also seen Norm go up a little notch again from his own personal effort and commitment to improve and the management of his minutes have been 10x worse than JV's.

            Valanciunas really hasn't evolved much at all over the years, that's HIS fault not Casey's minutes.

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            • JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
              That's the point.

              It's not the coaching staff's responsibility (although they should have a vested interest) in a player improving their game. Not to mention as I stated even on our own roster, DeRozan is a clear example of this himself. It wasn't Casey developing him over the years, it was DeMar making his own personal commitment each summer to add things to his game. Even in a single year we also seen Norm go up a little notch again from his own personal effort and commitment to improve and the management of his minutes have been 10x worse than JV's.

              Valanciunas really hasn't evolved much at all over the years, that's HIS fault not Casey's minutes.
              Ah ok my bad I think I misunderstood what point you were making.

              The thing is Casey has actually given JV minutes right from the get go. He was a day 1 starter, even DeMar had to come off the bench for a bit with Belinelli ahead of him. And Casey was singing his praises after that 2011 draft for over a year. It does seem like JV kinda just gets all the blame shifted onto the coaching staff or organization. He bulked up incorrectly supposedly because the team messed up, but there are other players who bulked up (like DeMar for example, or if you want a center example look at Kanter) but actually added mostly muscle, stayed lean and retained mobility while increasing explosiveness. And looking at his offensive game he doesn't really seem to have added much there either. Hasn't improved as a passer, still very reluctant to shoot from outside even though he started with an excellent touch and even his post game is still very rudimentary.

              He actually peaked I think in his 3rd year, and overall hasn't really improved a ton since he first entered the league. He's a good player just not a great one.

              And you're right, it's on the player to raise their game. I mean as an NBA player you're selling a product to coaches, teams, fans, sponsors, etc and that product is primarily your basketball ability. You should be striving to improve that ability as much as possible in order to make yourself a higher valued commodity.

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              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                Ah ok my bad I think I misunderstood what point you were making.

                The thing is Casey has actually given JV minutes right from the get go. He was a day 1 starter, even DeMar had to come off the bench for a bit with Belinelli ahead of him. And Casey was singing his praises after that 2011 draft for over a year. It does seem like JV kinda just gets all the blame shifted onto the coaching staff or organization. He bulked up incorrectly supposedly because the team messed up, but there are other players who bulked up (like DeMar for example, or if you want a center example look at Kanter) but actually added mostly muscle, stayed lean and retained mobility while increasing explosiveness. And looking at his offensive game he doesn't really seem to have added much there either. Hasn't improved as a passer, still very reluctant to shoot from outside even though he started with an excellent touch and even his post game is still very rudimentary.

                He actually peaked I think in his 3rd year, and overall hasn't really improved a ton since he first entered the league. He's a good player just not a great one.

                And you're right, it's on the player to raise their game. I mean as an NBA player you're selling a product to coaches, teams, fans, sponsors, etc and that product is primarily your basketball ability. You should be striving to improve that ability as much as possible in order to make yourself a higher valued commodity.
                DeMar started from game one. He lost his starting spot for the final 12 games of year one.

                Frankly, I don't see the need to parcel blame. He's a solid starting C. He might be more, and we won't know because the team has found success with him being this version of himself, so there's no need to funnel usage through him like they did with DeMar to see if he could handle it.

                The player and team mishandled his bulking, there's plenty of room for blame on both sides. Hopefully he continues to improve his quickness and awareness with experience.

                As for the other criticisms, expecting to see passing improvement from a big man in this system tells me more about the observer (who seems not to be observing much) than the player, and JV's hesitance to shoot from outside probably has something to do with his role card only saying defence and rebounding on it. But he's developing some confidence there as well, and we should see that continue to improve. Which is good, it will only help the team, which is all I'm looking for.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • DanH wrote: View Post
                  DeMar started from game one. He lost his starting spot for the final 12 games of year one.

                  Frankly, I don't see the need to parcel blame. He's a solid starting C. He might be more, and we won't know because the team has found success with him being this version of himself, so there's no need to funnel usage through him like they did with DeMar to see if he could handle it.

                  The player and team mishandled his bulking, there's plenty of room for blame on both sides. Hopefully he continues to improve his quickness and awareness with experience.

                  As for the other criticisms, expecting to see passing improvement from a big man in this system tells me more about the observer (who seems not to be observing much) than the player, and JV's hesitance to shoot from outside probably has something to do with his role card only saying defence and rebounding on it. But he's developing some confidence there as well, and we should see that continue to improve. Which is good, it will only help the team, which is all I'm looking for.
                  This is just patently untrue. Even Amir was allowed to take threes from time to time under Casey. If JV had the confidence and ability to take that shot he'd be doing so. Casey has even stressed how he wants JV to extend his range and take more jumpshots. This comment is utter nonsense man. Him being able to shoot would make him even more valuable as the 3rd or 4th option that he is as an outlet not just for pick and roll but also for pick and pop or spot up plays as well. It'd also help us space the floor even better.

                  There is no way they are telling him not to shoot jumpshots if he can fucking make them, that assertion is absurd.

                  “That’s the next evolution of centers,” Casey said. “Guys migrate out there. Lucas (Nogueira) is migrating out there and JV is migrating out there and I think that’s going to be the new wave. Ibaka is knocking down shots (from three-point range), so that’s the new thing in the NBA now.”

                  “We’re practicing,” Valanciunas told Pro Bball Report about his three-point shooting in the pregame warm-up. “Practicing to add this to my game. This is something new. Probably coach Nurse can talk about this more. Just slowly getting that developed, slowly getting that in my game.
                  http://probballreport.com/raptors-jo...-3-point-shot/

                  Just one of several quotes on this subject.

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post
                    ...he's developing some confidence there as well, and we should see that continue to improve. Which is good, it will only help the team, which is all I'm looking for.
                    Wasn't there some video early this off season of him working on his outside shot? The writing is certainly on the wall about the need for it. He seemed to start taking more shots from extended range at the end of last season. Hopefully his role card allows him to take some without an immediate jerk to the bench if he misses.

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                    • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                      This is just patently untrue. Even Amir was allowed to take threes from time to time under Casey. If JV had the confidence and ability to take that shot he'd be doing so. Casey has even stressed how he wants JV to extend his range and take more jumpshots. This comment is utter nonsense man. Him being able to shoot would make him even more valuable as the 3rd or 4th option that he is as an outlet not just for pick and roll but also for pick and pop or spot up plays as well. It'd also help us space the floor even better.

                      There is no way they are telling him not to shoot jumpshots if he can fucking make them, that assertion is absurd.



                      http://probballreport.com/raptors-jo...-3-point-shot/

                      Just one of several quotes on this subject.
                      Yes, and Nogueira really jacked them up out there, didn't he? With his 0.4 3PA/36, only higher than Siakam, JV himself, and Poeltl. Maybe he suffers from the same insecurity in his shot that has nothing at all to do with what the coaches are telling the big men their role is.

                      The coaching staff has said that it's his next step - that is, that he hasn't made it yet. Never mind that they are explicitly talking about 3 point shots to space the floor, not midrange shots.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                        This is just patently untrue. Even Amir was allowed to take threes from time to time under Casey. If JV had the confidence and ability to take that shot he'd be doing so. Casey has even stressed how he wants JV to extend his range and take more jumpshots. This comment is utter nonsense man. Him being able to shoot would make him even more valuable as the 3rd or 4th option that he is as an outlet not just for pick and roll but also for pick and pop or spot up plays as well. It'd also help us space the floor even better.

                        There is no way they are telling him not to shoot jumpshots if he can fucking make them, that assertion is absurd.



                        http://probballreport.com/raptors-jo...-3-point-shot/

                        Just one of several quotes on this subject.
                        Uh, and then there's this.....

                        "If your big guys don't dominate, you have to go small," Casey told ESPN's Zach Lowe. "I tell Jonas (Valanciunas): 'Oh, you want to play more? Then dominate. I don't want to see fadeaways over 6-8 guys. Get to the rim. Get every offensive rebound. If not, you're coming out.'"
                        https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/12...e-s-coming-out

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                        • And there's all the times where Casey or whoever says they told JV he won't get the ball unless he posts up within x feet of the basket. (which he could definitely still improve on)

                          As far as passing, he'll never be at the level of Jokic/M.Gasol or even Noah (very solid but not spectacular). Yep, he could be better passing on the roll and have better awareness on doubles but I agree that he's had little opportunity for growth in that area.

                          No blame. Just the way the team and the team's success has worked itself out.
                          Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                          • golden wrote: View Post
                            Context, smaller players....

                            Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                            @Chr1st1anL

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                            • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                              Context, smaller players....

                              Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                              Context... the NBA.

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                              • golden wrote: View Post
                                Yeah he doesn't want to see fadeaways over smaller players, he wants him to be aggressive against them.

                                This doesn't mean he's not allowed to shoot the ball. You can also shoot from outside and still be a very intimidating presence on both ends if you work hard at your game.

                                Y'all try to act like we're holding back some elite talent. Talent shines through if you put in the work. It's not like JV doesn't get an opportunity when he's started almost every single game he's played in his career. Jokic was the BACKUP CENTER at the start of last season and was still able to seize an opportunity and showcase his abilities to the point that Denver traded the guy who previously started over him (Nurkic). If JV is really some star talent he'd put it on display, he's had more than enough opportunity.

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