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  • Mess wrote: View Post
    He played backup C like 10% of the time too.

    Crazy thing is if you go by Bask-Ref #'s, Casey played him at C 20% of the time in 14-15 - a % of much fewer minutes overall than Miami though. Some of that might be because they'd classify Amir at PF or something. Because I don't remember much of that.
    Comes down to if you think JJ or PP would play C if they are the only two bigs. There were 90 minutes of those lineups in 14-15. Almost no lineups with JJ as the only big (I only found one lineup that played for 3 total minutes).
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • golden wrote: View Post
      If I was running a team, I wouldn't leave off-season training, diet regimen etc... totally up to the players in this day and age of sports science and especially with the kind of money invested in them. Obviously, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Maybe the Raps training staff gave JJ & Rudy Gay very specific instructions on how to prepare their bodies to play PF against bigger, stronger opponents without losing quickness/explosiveness and they didn't follow. Maybe the same thing happened with JV?

      Regardless, the Heat seem to be taking a proactive role as leaders in this area, and perhaps that's something the Raps coaching staff can learn from. Dion Waiters is yet another success story along similar lines.
      I think Erik Spoelstra deserves more credit than even the trainers, but that's just me.

      Spoelstra is the reason they almost made the playoffs. That man is a very good coach and he knows how to work with what he has.



      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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      • special1 wrote: View Post
        I think Erik Spoelstra deserves more credit than even the trainers, but that's just me.

        Spoelstra is the reason they almost made the playoffs. That man is a very good coach and he knows how to work with what he has.



        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        I always thought Spo was overrated until last year. He does have Pat Riley to back him up and intimidate the players, though.

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        • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
          This is just patently untrue. Even Amir was allowed to take threes from time to time under Casey. If JV had the confidence and ability to take that shot he'd be doing so. Casey has even stressed how he wants JV to extend his range and take more jumpshots. This comment is utter nonsense man. Him being able to shoot would make him even more valuable as the 3rd or 4th option that he is as an outlet not just for pick and roll but also for pick and pop or spot up plays as well. It'd also help us space the floor even better.

          There is no way they are telling him not to shoot jumpshots if he can fucking make them, that assertion is absurd.



          http://probballreport.com/raptors-jo...-3-point-shot/

          Just one of several quotes on this subject.
          Except...that doesn't come through in games. In many games I saw JV would take a mid-range shot, miss and then Lowry and Demar(and Cory) would start looking him off. It seems implied that the message in game was "get to the rim and stop taking jumpers". Hard to have confidence in your jumper if your teammates start looking you off after one miss.
          "Stay steamy"

          - Kobe

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          • hotfuzz wrote: View Post
            Except...that doesn't come through in games. In many games I saw JV would take a mid-range shot, miss and then Lowry and Demar(and Cory) would start looking him off. It seems implied that the message in game was "get to the rim and stop taking jumpers". Hard to have confidence in your jumper if your teammates start looking you off after one miss.
            They don't look JV off because he misses a shot. They look him off because he's slow in his decision making. They want to push the pace on offence to keep the defence off balance. By the time JV has a chance to look at his options, pump fake, make a decision on what he wants to do....the defence is set which limits a bunch of options. Hopefully his judgment and decision making are quicker/better this season. They will definitely be looking to trade him again, so he needs to impress in the areas where the team is seeking improvement from him.

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            • LJ2 wrote: View Post
              They don't look JV off because he misses a shot. They look him off because he's slow in his decision making. They want to push the pace on offence to keep the defence off balance. By the time JV has a chance to look at his options, pump fake, make a decision on what he wants to do....the defence is set which limits a bunch of options. Hopefully his judgment and decision making are quicker/better this season. They will definitely be looking to trade him again, so he needs to impress in the areas where the team is seeking improvement from him.
              This is a complete myth. The Raptors do not remotely like to push the pace. They operate in half court sets, and are at their best when they slow down the pace. DeRozan is by far the most used option, and he stops to let the defence set at the start of every play. Heck, it's a strategic decision - slowing down the offence and running more methodical sets reduces turnovers, and low turnovers are a huge strength of this offence and one of the main reasons it has been ranking near the top of the league for so long.

              Whatever reason JV doesn't get passed to as much (my theory is that this is simply how the system emphasizes decision-making, aggression from the guards rather than making the pass), it's not that one.
              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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              • DanH wrote: View Post
                This is a complete myth. The Raptors do not remotely like to push the pace. They operate in half court sets, and are at their best when they slow down the pace. DeRozan is by far the most used option, and he stops to let the defence set at the start of every play. Heck, it's a strategic decision - slowing down the offence and running more methodical sets reduces turnovers, and low turnovers are a huge strength of this offence and one of the main reasons it has been ranking near the top of the league for so long.

                Whatever reason JV doesn't get passed to as much (my theory is that this is simply how the system emphasizes decision-making, aggression from the guards rather than making the pass), it's not that one.
                Odd, it seems like Casey is always on the side lines trying to get them to push the ball whenever they get the ball in their hands. Lowry as well and he's always on the refs to get the ball to him quicker for an inbound. Pace has been an area where the Raptors have ranked among the lowest teams. You would think quickening their pace is something they wanted to do. Even if the intent is to settle into a half court offence they still want to keep the defence off balance don't they?

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                • DanH wrote: View Post
                  This is a complete myth. The Raptors do not remotely like to push the pace. They operate in half court sets, and are at their best when they slow down the pace. DeRozan is by far the most used option, and he stops to let the defence set at the start of every play. Heck, it's a strategic decision - slowing down the offence and running more methodical sets reduces turnovers, and low turnovers are a huge strength of this offence and one of the main reasons it has been ranking near the top of the league for so long.

                  Whatever reason JV doesn't get passed to as much (my theory is that this is simply how the system emphasizes decision-making, aggression from the guards rather than making the pass), it's not that one.
                  Thanks for this, I've seen people saying this a lot here and on RealGM. We play slow as fuck. Casey, even when he was coaching Minnesota was always near the bottom in pace. It's actually part of the illusion that he's an elite defensive HC. The one consistency in all his teams is not elite offense or elite defense it's slow pace and trying to minimize turnovers.

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                  • That's also why they limit passing to JV in the post and on the roll - turnovers. A post-entry pass shouldn't be seen as risky, but the combination of our guards and JV as the recipient does result in more than a few bobbles and deflections, and that's before the double comes. Plays to catch JV flashing to the post or catching going to the basket would help, as would a little more confidence in the guards' passing ability combined with JV's catching-finishing ability.

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                    • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                      That's also why they limit passing to JV in the post and on the roll - turnovers. A post-entry pass shouldn't be seen as risky, but the combination of our guards and JV as the recipient does result in more than a few bobbles and deflections, and that's before the double comes. Plays to catch JV flashing to the post or catching going to the basket would help, as would a little more confidence in the guards' passing ability combined with JV's catching-finishing ability.
                      This is a really good point.

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                      • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                        Thanks for this, I've seen people saying this a lot here and on RealGM. We play slow as fuck. Casey, even when he was coaching Minnesota was always near the bottom in pace. It's actually part of the illusion that he's an elite defensive HC. The one consistency in all his teams is not elite offense or elite defense it's slow pace and trying to minimize turnovers.
                        Illusion? He has proven that when given the right player he can produce an elite D like we saw to close out the season. It's not easy to build good defense when you subpar perimeter defender(deebo) and big(JV). Deebo/JV are defensive coach worse nightmare. The fact that they both start adds to the issue. Personnel has a lot to do with it. Look at Thibs in Minesota. They still couldn't stop anyone this year. Now look how much better they are with Butler/Gibson in the lockeroom this upcoming year.

                        Inregards to JV, the players just don't think he is that good. If JV was this offensive juggernaut that you guys believe than they would feed him. Do you think any of our players would look off DMC? Not, a chance. They believe in his talent. They don't think JV sucks. Just don't think he is this special offensive player that needs to be unleashed.

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                        Last edited by Chr1s1anL; Mon Sep 18, 2017, 12:48 PM.
                        @Chr1st1anL

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                        • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                          Illusion? He has proven that when given the right player he can produce an elite D like we saw to close out the season. It's not easy to build good defense when you subpar perimeter defender(deebo) and big(JV). Deebo/JV are defensive coach worse nightmare. The fact that they both start adds to the issue. Personnel has a lot to do with it. Look at Thibs in Minesota. They still couldn't stop anyone this year. Now look how much better they are with Butler/Gibson in the lockeroom this upcoming year.

                          Inregards to JV, the players just don't think he is that good. If JV was this offensive juggernaut that you guys believe than they would feed him. Do you think any of our players would look off DMC? Not, a chance. They believe in his talent. They don't think JV sucks. Just don't think he is this special offensive player that needs to be unleashed.

                          Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
                          Fair point. I would like to see what Casey can do defensively without having to start both JV and DD.

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                          • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                            Fair point. I would like to see what Casey can do defensively without having to start both JV and DD.
                            I think this is overblown. JV missed a big chunk of time in the 15-16 season, and with Biyombo in his place the team ranked 9th defensively in that time. They ranked 11th on the year. Nevermind the specific lineup stats showing the starters were actually worse defensively with Biyombo in JV's place on the year.

                            DeMar missed 22 games in 14-15. The Raptors sat 29th in defensive rating in that stretch, and ended up 23rd on the year.

                            Casey is perfectly capable of designing a solid defence with both players involved, and removing them hasn't made a huge difference either way. Heck, he was hired specifically for that strength, hiding poor defensive players within a system - he built a decent defence around Dirk in Dallas. He's never built an elite defence around elite defensive players, not for a sample bigger than 20 games or so. It's not where his strength lies. Heck, even the defensive success late last year had waned dramatically by the end of those 20 games - it was a post-trade bump, not a sustainable improvement showing that Casey can craft an elite defence. Nevermind that both DD and JV were playing significant minutes for that stretch.

                            I expect we'll post a defence between 8th and 12th or so again this year, as they've done for most of the life of this core (I expect the high end of that with Ibaka in the starting lineup) and an elite offence once again.
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                            • DanH wrote: View Post
                              I think this is overblown. JV missed a big chunk of time in the 15-16 season, and with Biyombo in his place the team ranked 9th defensively in that time. They ranked 11th on the year. Nevermind the specific lineup stats showing the starters were actually worse defensively with Biyombo in JV's place on the year.

                              DeMar missed 22 games in 14-15. The Raptors sat 29th in defensive rating in that stretch, and ended up 23rd on the year.

                              Casey is perfectly capable of designing a solid defence with both players involved, and removing them hasn't made a huge difference either way. Heck, he was hired specifically for that strength, hiding poor defensive players within a system - he built a decent defence around Dirk in Dallas. He's never built an elite defence around elite defensive players, not for a sample bigger than 20 games or so. It's not where his strength lies. Heck, even the defensive success late last year had waned dramatically by the end of those 20 games - it was a post-trade bump, not a sustainable improvement showing that Casey can craft an elite defence. Nevermind that both DD and JV were playing significant minutes for that stretch.

                              I expect we'll post a defence between 8th and 12th or so again this year, as they've done for most of the life of this core (I expect the high end of that with Ibaka in the starting lineup) and an elite offence once again.
                              We were about 4th I think during the 21 game stretch post ASB with JV and DeMar starting too so fair point.

                              Maybe it's about raising the defensive level of the guys around them. You're right, that Dallas team got away with regularly playing two sieves (Terry and Dirk) on defense.

                              I give Carlisle more credit for that D than Casey though. He had a track record of coaching elite defensive teams in Indiana and Detroit before.

                              I doubt we'll see a top 5 defense though. We're really missing that leader that we had with Tucker. He had even DeMar looking fairly decent on that end, making hustle plays I hadn't seen since his rookie season. I don't think Norm has the cache to be that guy and Ibaka doesn't seem that vocal.
                              Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Mon Sep 18, 2017, 03:45 PM.

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                              • Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
                                We were about 4th I think during the 21 game stretch post ASB with JV and DeMar starting too so fair point.

                                Maybe it's about raising the defensive level of the guys around them. You're right, that Dallas team got away with regularly playing two sieves (Terry and Dirk) on defense.

                                I give Carlisle more credit for that D than Casey though. He had a track record of coaching elite defensive teams in Indiana and Detroit before.

                                I doubt we'll see a top 5 defense though. We're really missing that leader that we had with Tucker. He had even DeMar looking fairly decent on that end, making hustle plays I hadn't seen since his rookie season. I don't think Norm has the cache to be that guy and Ibaka doesn't seem that vocal.
                                How are you going to give him more credit when he himself said that it was Casey's D...

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                                @Chr1st1anL

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