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  • I'd lean towards stop trying to work things out for 10-11 guys at this point. I'm ready to let CJ and Norm fall out of the rotation for now. Use more hybrid lineups. The other guys are all productive still but the days of a 5 man bench unit are gone (never liked the idea much anyway, doesn't translate to the playoffs).
    "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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    • JVs my favourite NBA player but its getting hard to watch him on this team. The league has trended in a way that if you want to be an elite team, it's very difficult to play guys significant minutes that can only play one side of the ball. JV can play solid man to man post defence (even here he picks up unnecessary fouls as he is over aggressive) but everywhere else he is lacking. It literally looks like the opposing team can and does score in whatever way they want against him.

      His offence is also an afterthought on this team and with the additions of Kawhi and Danny, and the emergence of Pascal and Serge, his teammates are involving him less and less. Even when he scores 12-16 points, it looks like he gives just as much back on defence. His feel for the game is still not natural for him and this exposes him to rough stretches where he looks terrible for a few plays in a row.

      In terms of value / importance to the team, I would rank him 7th, behind the starters and OG because all of these guys can impact the game on both sides of the ball.

      If we start involving JV in about 5-6 pick and rolls a game and he gets us a few timely buckets when the jumpers aren't falling, his value would climb with the team. Defensively, involving him in a PnR, leads to an open jumper for the guard EVERY SINGLE time. I would love to see the coaching staff mix things up a bit to make him more playable against competent offences and offensive players.

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      • You know what the expected value of a wide open pull up two pointer is? It’s less than 1 PPP. Give that up in every set every game all game long and you win basically every game. There will be some games where guys can’t miss. Such is life. But any team hanging their hat on those shots is fighting a losing battle.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • S.R. wrote: View Post
          I'd lean towards stop trying to work things out for 10-11 guys at this point. I'm ready to let CJ and Norm fall out of the rotation for now. Use more hybrid lineups. The other guys are all productive still but the days of a 5 man bench unit are gone (never liked the idea much anyway, doesn't translate to the playoffs).
          This. RIP bench mob, it didn't happen

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          • S.R. wrote: View Post
            I'd lean towards stop trying to work things out for 10-11 guys at this point. I'm ready to let CJ and Norm fall out of the rotation for now. Use more hybrid lineups. The other guys are all productive still but the days of a 5 man bench unit are gone (never liked the idea much anyway, doesn't translate to the playoffs).
            Yeah, I think it's more about finding transition lineups to fill in around our incredible starting lineup, than trying to re-create the magic of the 5-man 'bench mob'. The goal now should be to simply find transition lineups that bleed the least that also gives our starters max minutes together and enough rest for the end of game push.

            One change could be instead of swapping OG for Pascal at PF, we take Kawhi out earlier and sub in OG at SF, so Kawhi can prop up the bench units (FVV & Wright). Another change could putting Serge & JV back together in limited minutes, but only against other bench lineups when Pascal is resting and Serge subs back in at PF.

            At this point, I'm pretty sure that the hockey lineups innovation was Nurse's idea but he needs to let that one go.

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            • planetmars wrote: View Post
              I would.

              I love JV.. probably my third favorite Raptor after Lowry and Kawhi (and my second favorite last year).

              But I don't think JV and Fred make a good pairing. Yet I think Tristan would. Tristan is far more like Poeltl than JV in that Poeltl is an energy big. Loves to fly around in the post. JV likes to plant his feet and uses his strength in the post to get good position. Fred likes chaos. He thrives when guys are moving around so he can find you open for a pass. It's why Siakam was such a good partner for him last year. Yet JV is not.

              You could say.. well Nurse should be starting JV more, and should be using Fred differently (more as a spot-up shooter, less as an offensive coordinator). But that's not changing.. at least not this year. Nurse has had more than a quarter of the season. Not sure how much more experimenting is left. We can hope that he tries Delon more as the initiator but sometimes you need to force a coach's hand (and Masai has done that plenty of times in the past for Casey).

              JV is more talented than Tristan in my opinion.. an elite screen setter. Great rebounder. Super efficient. But I think Tristan would be more valuable as a Raptor than JV would.. at least with the way Nurse wants them to play.


              So my proposal would be JV, Norm & CJ for Tristan & JR Smith.
              http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yctr6o2n

              JR Smith is not with the team anymore. The Cavs don't want him. Adding him to the trade might make it easier for the Cavs to let Tristan go. He's a clown and can hurt the locker room. I mean CJ, Norm and JV all seem like stand up guys. Tristan is married to a Kardashian, and JR Smith throws soup back at his assistant. But I think the off court stuff is slightly insignificant. We've seen many clowns win rings in the past. Smith, Rodman, Artest, Rondo. These guys are annoying but when placed in the right environment can help you win.


              What I also love about Smith and Tristan is that they are both playoff tested. JV is a beast in the playoffs.. but is he going to get over 30mpg? Is he going to get the opportunity to beast when Kawhi is on the floor with him? He's 8th most on the team right now in MPG. Less than Fred and OG. Tristan has a ring. It was on James' back, but he was still a vital member of that team.. especially when Love got hurt in 2016. Tristan averaged 32mpg in that series. And that was against the 73 win Golden State Warriors.

              Smith has $3.7M guaranteed for next year. So we can waive him and eat up some of that cap hit. JV and Tristan have similar lengths to their deals, but JV has a player option next year. Tristan doesn't. I suspect JV to opt in.

              It's a risky trade because Tristan/Smith aren't usually kind to a locker room. But I think we would get guys that fit our system better and are playoff tested. Tristan being a Canadian is a bonus.. something Masai really values. And we'd lose Norm's mom!

              As for the Cavs.. well they love Tristan. He's their home grown talent (home grown in that they drafted him). He's still young (only 27). A year older than JV though. A tanking team with no reason to hoard cash for free agency may not care about cost per year. So at best it's a wash.

              But, adding Smith to the trade might help perk their ears up. They are paying Smith to stay home. That's $14.7M worth of rotten cake. CJ is having a terrible year, but maybe they can give him more opportunity to boost his 3pt shooting, and then trade him at the deadline to a team looking for a shooter? He's got a pretty good value contract. Norm gives them a young guy to help grow. They may not need another wing though but for us, Smith can do what Norm can with just 3 less years on his deal.

              I'd hate to see JV go, and I'm a big JV fan. I just don't see Nurse changing things up to make it work properly. And we really only have this year to try and go for it. Kawhi could be gone and we could have lost out on a big opportunity.
              This is a real tough one, because we all know that JV can win you a game or 2 in the playoffs by himself. He's mentally & physically tough and he elevates his game instead of shrinking. But teams are targeting him mercilessly and that will only increase in the playoffs.

              Thompson isn't going to win you a game per se, but he's very consistent and makes a lot of momentum changing plays - especially those deflating offensive rebounds. His mobility on defense would make us really difficult to score against. Also physically and mentally tough and championship tested. And the fact that he always suits up for Team Canada following looong NBA seasons says a lot about his character and intangibles. He'd be great.

              Rebounding is clearly a problem for this team - another guy we could target is Ed Davis, who's a similar type of player.

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              • Im with planetmars, I love JV to death hes great all around center and great person but this rebounding issue is one I have nightmares about. Over a hopeful 4 rounds of playoff ball I have a feeling it can be the problem that sends us home. Out of 12 guys its good to have one rebound gobbler in the tool kit. JV can board but tristan is a next level rebounder and he might even spike higher than usual with a return home. Even against GS losing those boards at the end tore my soul out. They were considered weak in C position too. We were lucky. Even during free throws my son said durant would miss the second i said i hope not we might lose the rebound and we did!!! Poetl was so good at sniffing out rebounds there were countless times hed grab an o board at the perfect time. Tristan would suit the second unit better than serge or jv imo.

                The thing I like about the bench mob idea is the unit gets repetition with the same cast. These days practices seem less effective and more about watching tape in game cohesion over the season is good. Playoff time more teams than not will have more experience together than this team has

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                • Yuri Gagarin wrote: View Post
                  Im with planetmars, I love JV to death hes great all around center and great person but this rebounding issue is one I have nightmares about. Over a hopeful 4 rounds of playoff ball I have a feeling it can be the problem that sends us home. Out of 12 guys its good to have one rebound gobbler in the tool kit. JV can board but tristan is a next level rebounder and he might even spike higher than usual with a return home. Even against GS losing those boards at the end tore my soul out. They were considered weak in C position too. We were lucky. Even during free throws my son said durant would miss the second i said i hope not we might lose the rebound and we did!!! Poetl was so good at sniffing out rebounds there were countless times hed grab an o board at the perfect time. Tristan would suit the second unit better than serge or jv imo.

                  The thing I like about the bench mob idea is the unit gets repetition with the same cast. These days practices seem less effective and more about watching tape in game cohesion over the season is good. Playoff time more teams than not will have more experience together than this team has
                  TT is a slightly better offensive rebounder than JV, a notably worse defensive rebounder, and overall a slightly worse rebounder than JV.

                  Considering the rebounding problem with the Raptors is at the defensive end, moving JV for TT will make them worse in that regard. Unless you're figuring the move also involves playing TT more than JV plays, in place of other guys who are worse rebounders than TT. Then your defensive rebounding might come out a wash.
                  "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                  • S.R. wrote: View Post
                    TT is a slightly better offensive rebounder than JV, a notably worse defensive rebounder, and overall a slightly worse rebounder than JV.

                    Considering the rebounding problem with the Raptors is at the defensive end, moving JV for TT will make them worse in that regard. Unless you're figuring the move also involves playing TT more than JV plays, in place of other guys who are worse rebounders than TT. Then your defensive rebounding might come out a wash.
                    Yeah, guys, if you think TT is a better rebounder than JV you've got some surprises coming your way if you acquire him.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • Oh i thought his def rebounding was better too my bad

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                      • Yeah JV for 3 years has been 13.5 rebounds per 36. Tristan is having a career year (and granted it's been 6 weeks) and is just matching that 13.5. Hes normally closer to 11.

                        Even if you wanted to argue their rebounding is basically a saw off, JV is better at almost everything else. Including the fact hes not an absolute tool and keeping up with the Kardashians
                        It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                        • Yuri Gagarin wrote: View Post
                          Oh i thought his def rebounding was better too my bad
                          No. You're not swapping out JV for TT for rebounding. It's to guard opposition PnR and generally, in space.

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                          • golden wrote: View Post
                            No. You're not swapping out JV for TT for rebounding. It's to guard opposition PnR and generally, in space.
                            Is tristan good at that? Cause he wasnt getting any 4th quarter minutes when the Cavs were good
                            It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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                            • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                              Is tristan good at that? Cause he wasnt getting any 4th quarter minutes when the Cavs were good
                              TT definitely fell out of favor in the regular season last year, but he came back strong in the playoffs. I've never been a huge fan, but the issue here is the best way to utilize JV if other teams are going to attack him on D when he's with the bench. Some are suggesting promoting him back to the starting lineup and moving Ibaka to the bench. Others are suggesting a trade, but we still need a big body to go against Embiid and Cousins. It's an interesting discussion.

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                              • I dont see the need to trade JV hes putting up literally record numbers for under 20 minutes. How many guys out there are naturally 20 pt 12 rebound guys but are always in a good mood even though they're relegated to 8th in minutes?

                                Jvs random absolute bursts of scoring have proven huge time and time again in the playoffs. Hes a top 3 scorer on the team who improves in may. Thompson may be slightly better in pick and roll but will still he relegated well behind Ibaka and siakam at crunch time 5 anyways
                                It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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