Everything Valanciunas

[slaw]

Or, as danh has been saying, use the pg we already have, the worse shooter but more creative and handler and pick and roll guy in delon, and play fred at the 2 as catch and shoot

Well, Wright hasn't been all that great.

I know it's antiquated but I'd like to see JV get some post-ups with that second group. It can't be any worse than watching FVV dribble around in circles or Wright practically beg for someone to get the ball and then driving into traffic and turning it over or throwing up wild shots.

[KeonClark]

Well, Wright hasn't been all that great.

I know it's antiquated but I'd like to see JV get some post-ups with that second group. It can't be any worse than watching FVV dribble around in circles or Wright practically beg for someone to get the ball and then driving into traffic and turning it over or throwing up wild shots.

Well that's another reason why we should switch their roles. Theyve both been pretty shit. Wright may force it less if hes got the ball more, rather than playing as the shooting guard who doesnt shoot

[golden]

Well that's another reason why we should switch their roles. Theyve both been pretty shit. Wright may force it less if hes got the ball more, rather than playing as the shooting guard who doesnt shoot

So to get value out of FVV, we need to play him as the most undersized SG in the NBA, in a backup role no less? We should have just signed a veteran backup SG like Courtney Lee, Quincy Pondexter, Garrett Temple, etc... and brought in a reclamation project PG, like Derrick Rose. Replacement-level backup PGs are an available commodity, especially when you consider FVV's physical limitations.

[DanH]

The Raptors' DRTG is 4 points better with JV on the court than off. Before you say that's the bench effect: Fred has the same on and off court DRTG, Wright is 3 points worse on the court than off, and OG (JV's frontcourt partner with the bench) is SIX points worse on than off. Miles tops them all, with a team worst 8 point swing in DRTG on versus off. And JV has a 4 point swing in the opposite direction of all those guys.

Meanwhile, Lowry and Leonard as a pair have a 106 DRTG with Serge and a 100 DRTG with JV. Lowry's DRTG is 4 points better with JV than without him. Leonard's is 3 points better.

There are absolutely matchup effects there. But we should be beyond the point where we treat JV's defence as a significant weak point in either unit. It's his personal weak point - but within the team structure, he's really not hurting them very often at all.

[DanH]

So to get value out of FVV, we need to play him as the most undersized SG in the NBA, in a backup role no less? We should have just signed a veteran backup SG like Courtney Lee, Quincy Pondexter, Garrett Temple, etc... and brought in a reclamation project PG, like Derrick Rose. Replacement-level backup PGs are an available commodity, especially when you consider FVV's physical limitations.

Exactly like we did last year? Yes, we should play him like we did last year, as primarily an off ball player who worked his attacks into secondary offence more than the primary action. In that role he's one of the best bench players in the game, so no thanks to Garrett Temple, thank you very much. Heck, he's so good in that role that he closed games last year and was pretty effective, because DD and Lowry had the ball. Just have to convince Kawhi and Lowry to not give FVV the ball and he could be a valuable closer again (though with Green here it's less obvious he will be needed there as much).

[golden]

Exactly like we did last year? Yes, we should play him like we did last year, as primarily an off ball player who worked his attacks into secondary offence more than the primary action. In that role he's one of the best bench players in the game, so no thanks to Garrett Temple, thank you very much. Heck, he's so good in that role that he closed games last year and was pretty effective, because DD and Lowry had the ball. Just have to convince Kawhi and Lowry to not give FVV the ball and he could be a valuable closer again (though with Green here it's less obvious he will be needed there as much).

You're forgetting that FVV surprised a lot of people last year? He wasn't on anybody's scouting report. After being a finalist for 6MOTY, he's getting a lot more attention. You can see it this clearly at the rim, where he is rarely even getting a chance to finish and every shot is a circus shot. Part of his effectiveness last year was to mix a few of those in to keep defenses off-balance, which wouldn't be the same level of threat as soley an undersized floor spacer. He's being guarded tighter and teams are collapsing on him quicker to close both passing and driving lines. What we're seeing is not just lineups... Freddy's being sped up this year and that's one reason he's looking flappable this year, when 'steady' is supposed to be his calling card.

[The Claw Reborn]

Or, as danh has been saying, use the pg we already have, the worse shooter but more creative and handler and pick and roll guy in delon, and play fred at the 2 as catch and shoot

Something has to give. He played well as a catch and shoot guy with Kawhi. So now being a primary ball handler with JV as the Center may no longer be a good idea. Nurse then will have to clearly define his role and what is best for the team.

By reading recent responses, It seems the concensus is that JV is not the problem but more of FVV’s role and limitations. That said, is Fred a valuable long term part of the core or is he a valuable commodity to be traded? Or is JV still a bait before the deadline? Or both not a liability for the stretch run?

[The Claw Reborn]

Something has to give. He played well as a catch and shoot guy with Kawhi. So now being a primary ball handler with JV as the Center may no longer be a good idea. Nurse then will have to clearly define his role and what is best for the team.

By reading recent responses, It seems the concensus is that JV is not the problem but more of FVV’s role and limitations. That said, is Fred a valuable long term part of the core or is he a valuable commodity to be traded? Or is JV still a bait before the deadline? Or both not a liability for the stretch run?

Im saying this because neither Miles nor Powell current value can give us a return that will move the needle.

[KeonClark]

Im saying this because neither Miles nor Powell current value can give us a return that will move the needle.

Why do we need a return on anything? These players are all talented just need to settle in. 20-4 teams dont trade their young talented players

[The Claw Reborn]

Why do we need a return on anything? These players are all talented just need to settle in. 20-4 teams dont trade their young talented players

Then a clear role definition has to come from Nurse. Including a more sound rotation and exploiting mismatches. All on the coach.

Status quo by the sound of it

[DanH]

You're forgetting that FVV surprised a lot of people last year? He wasn't on anybody's scouting report. After being a finalist for 6MOTY, he's getting a lot more attention. You can see it this clearly at the rim, where he is rarely even getting a chance to finish and every shot is a circus shot. Part of his effectiveness last year was to mix a few of those in to keep defenses off-balance, which wouldn't be the same level of threat as soley an undersized floor spacer. He's being guarded tighter and teams are collapsing on him quicker to close both passing and driving lines. What we're seeing is not just lineups... Freddy's being sped up this year and that's one reason he's looking flappable this year, when 'steady' is supposed to be his calling card.

I'm not forgetting anything. He was plenty effective even late in the year when scouting reports were coming in because he was still in the right role. He's nowhere close to the right role right now and that's what's killing his effectiveness.

Yes, the scouting report being out on him is making it harder for him to be effective when driving into the paint. All the more reason to keep him in his comfort zone and not have him drive into the paint endlessly all game long trying to create offence himself.

[KeonClark]

I'm not forgetting anything. He was plenty effective even late in the year when scouting reports were coming in because he was still in the right role. He's nowhere close to the right role right now and that's what's killing his effectiveness.

Yes, the scouting report being out on him is making it harder for him to be effective when driving into the paint. All the more reason to keep him in his comfort zone and not have him drive into the paint endlessly all game long trying to create offence himself.

Via reddit:

FVV is shooting 45.8 percent from deep, when he is playing off ball with Kyle Lowry. However, when Kyle is on the bench, FVV as the primary ball handler only shoots 27.8 from deep.

[inthepaint]

Via reddit:

FVV is shooting 45.8 percent from deep, when he is playing off ball with Kyle Lowry. However, when Kyle is on the bench, FVV as the primary ball handler only shoots 27.8 from deep.

My first thought when I read this is they should have FVV sub in for Green, and Wright for Lowry, so you either have Lowry + Green, Lowry + FVV, or Wright + Green at all times (or at least most of the time).

[white men can't jump]

Well, Wright hasn't been all that great.

I know it's antiquated but I'd like to see JV get some post-ups with that second group. It can't be any worse than watching FVV dribble around in circles or Wright practically beg for someone to get the ball and then driving into traffic and turning it over or throwing up wild shots.

I think Wright is suffering from the bench issues and seems to be taking a minutes hit as well. His efficiency has been fine. He's actually shooting a career high in 3pt %. He just doesn't have the ball in his hands a lot. Last year him and FVV pretty much shared ballhandling duties on the 2nd unit. Now FVV dominates the ball more.

Hard to get in a groove when you're not getting consistent opportunities and are forced to play out of your comfort zone.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[golden]

Via reddit:

FVV is shooting 45.8 percent from deep, when he is playing off ball with Kyle Lowry. However, when Kyle is on the bench, FVV as the primary ball handler only shoots 27.8 from deep.

Everybody plays better with Lowry, but a big part of Fred's value should be to allow Kyle to get some rest so we don't burn him out before the playoffs. Also, I'd like to see FVV's splits - don't have the numbers but it feels like he's been getting most of his points against the sad sack teams, except for Memphis.