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Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View PostI'm actually not just copy pasting what other teams are doing. I'm looking at our situation and a strategy that's been used effectively elsewhere and seeing how we can apply it.
You're providing evidence yes, so have I, but you haven't done it in any sort of conclusive way. You've focused on lineup stats which don't really show anything one way or the other regarding starting JV or bringing him off the bench. In my case we have very little data of Poeltl actually starting, so it's difficult to try to apply those numbers (you attacked viciously when I even dared to bring up the 2-man lineup Ibaka-Poeltl numbers). Other than that we saw JV come off the bench in the playoffs where he was very effective and had 2 of his highest usage and scoring games.
Even in your article you can't draw any concrete conclusions, and the conclusion you try to draw with JV playing with DeMar vs. Kyle off the bench is largely irrelevant. The point is he's coming off the bench in both circumstances and is the 2nd option rather than 4th which allows his main asset (offensive game) to be utilized better. The problem is with every stat you reference you're starting from the frame of "JV has to start" so it's hard to even accept other ideas.
Other people like Kevin Pelton, Zach Lowe, Nate Duncan, all very reliable advanced statistics based writers have suggested the Raptors try this.
Again, you say "second option versus fourth" like it means something. The reality is he only really saw a bump in usage (ie, moving up from 4th option to 2nd) when with the Lowry bench, not with the DeRozan bench.
I start from the frame of reference of what actually happened in reality. Not some predetermined conclusion. And I'd thank you to stop accusing me of it. If you have this pile of proof that JV cannot and should not be starting, and would be far better off, as would the team, coming off the bench, please show me. I'm not impossible to convince of things. I just like to be actually convinced, rather than have people proclaim themselves right with no evidence, then accuse my every honest attempt at debate as a biased failure to examine the actual evidence, besides my own, none of which has been provided.
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At the end of the day if we aren't bringing JV off the bench to maximize his effectiveness offensively then he needs to be traded. We have a huge need right now for a small-ball 4 who can shoot and defend big 3s/quick shooters at the 4 spot. If we aren't going to start Poeltl over him then the best move is to try and get one of those guys for him.
All he provides is rebounding and good screens next to three high usage players, and it's questionable how valuable that actually is. Poeltl is also a great screener and our rebounding with JV off the floor is pretty much just as good as with him on (because he hurts our defense so guys are out of position for boards, so even though he gets more, the team can't win those battles and gets less in return).
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Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View PostAt the end of the day if we aren't bringing JV off the bench to maximize his effectiveness offensively then he needs to be traded. We have a huge need right now for a small-ball 4 who can shoot and defend big 3s/quick shooters at the 4 spot. If we aren't going to start Poeltl over him then the best move is to try and get one of those guys for him.
All he provides is rebounding and good screens next to three high usage players, and it's questionable how valuable that actually is. Poeltl is also a great screener and our rebounding with JV off the floor is pretty much just as good as with him on (because he hurts our defense so guys are out of position for boards, so even though he gets more, the team can't win those battles and gets less in return).
Why does the team need to do anything? Why would him being part of lineups that smash other teams be a bad thing, even if he's not used to his full offensive potential? Like, if you are thinking he would have some great trade return because of that offensive potential, then I guess it makes sense, but surely you don't think that.
And I understand if you think he would not be part of lineups that smash the other team, but again I'd love to see some evidence for that - he's been part of some great lineups that have played primarily against starting and closing opposition over the past two seasons, and really the only lineups where he's consistently struggled have been where he was tied to the boat anchor PF's of the past two seasons (and the same description is true of Lowry and DeMar).
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Watching Dan H CONSISTENTLY show evidence and try his hardest to explain why JV coming off the bench won't help because he'll be playing alongside Demar and the bench a lot while Shaolin just doesn't get it is painful man lol. JV DOES NOT GET MORE TOUCHES COMING OFF THE BENCH! Stats prove it, it's not some made up thing Dan H is spewing. So if the point of JV coming off the bench is for him to have more touches, him coming off the bench will not do that ON OUR TEAM. History proves it and stats prove it. I'm so confused as to what's so hard to understand lol.
Stop looking at what OKC and the bucks do. They are a completely different team, with a completely different coach, with a completely different system with completely different players. On OUR team JV coming off the bench doesn't get him more touches and he plays horribly with demar and the bench. If he starts he can still get to play with the bench but it will be with LOWRY and the bench, which history and stats have shown he plays well with. Dan H you're good man. I could never be going back and forth like this. Especially with something that's so easy to understand lol.
People are out here acting like Jakob has proven so much. The man barely played last season like chill. Let him prove he deserves to start over JV before we go giving him the starter role. And I'm not even some big JV fan but gawdamn the reading comprehension on here sometimes is non existent LOL. Anyway I won't be going on about this anymore, it's pointless.I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.
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GLF wrote: View PostWatching Dan H CONSISTENTLY show evidence and try his hardest to explain why JV coming off the bench won't help because he'll be playing alongside Demar and the bench a lot while Shaolin just doesn't get it is painful man lol. JV DOES NOT GET MORE TOUCHES COMING OFF THE BENCH! Stats prove it, it's not some made up thing Dan H is spewing. So if the point of JV coming off the bench is for him to have more touches, him coming off the bench will not do that ON OUR TEAM. History proves it and stats prove it. I'm so confused as to what's so hard to understand lol.
Stop looking at what OKC and the bucks do. They are a completely different team, with a completely different coach, with a completely different system with completely different players. On OUR team JV coming off the bench doesn't get him more touches and he plays horribly with demar and the bench. If he starts he can still get to play with the bench but it will be with LOWRY and the bench, which history and stats have shown he plays well with. Dan H you're good man. I could never be going back and forth like this. Especially with something that's so easy to understand lol.
People are out here acting like Jakob has proven so much. The man barely played last season like chill. Let him prove he deserves to start over JV before we go giving him the starter role. And I'm not even some big JV fan but gawdamn the reading comprehension on here sometimes is non existent LOL. Anyway I won't be going on about this anymore, it's pointless.
If you're not allowed to do anything other than pay fealty to him because he's a writer for the site or whatever, then I'll gladly leave somewhere where it's ok to have a differing opinion.Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Tue Sep 5, 2017, 11:46 PM.
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Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View PostStats do not prove that JV shouldn't come off the bench. And people are allowed to disagree with DanH his word isn't law. There are professionals out there who agree with my opinion on the issue as well. To just act like his view is the only correct one to have is false.
If you're not allowed to do anything other than pay fealty to him because he's a writer for the site or whatever, then I'll gladly leave somewhere where it's ok to have a differing opinion.I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.
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Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View PostStats do not prove that JV shouldn't come off the bench. And people are allowed to disagree with DanH his word isn't law. There are professionals out there who agree with my opinion on the issue as well. To just act like his view is the only correct one to have is false.
If you're not allowed to do anything other than pay fealty to him because he's a writer for the site or whatever, then I'll gladly leave somewhere where it's ok to have a differing opinion.
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Valanciunas is balling against Germany. 23 PTS / 14 REB, two mins to go
Lithuania "5" - designed postup set to get Valanciunas the ball. Have been going to this set a lot against Germany today #EuroBasket2017 pic.twitter.com/QbdbSz68zh
— Ryan (@ry_nguyen) September 6, 2017
Lithuania is known for lead in actions.Last edited by rocwell; Wed Sep 6, 2017, 09:26 AM.
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rocwell wrote: View PostValanciunas is balling against Germany. 23 PTS / 14 REB, two mins to go
Lithuania "5" - designed postup set to get Valanciunas the ball. Have been going to this set a lot against Germany today #EuroBasket2017 pic.twitter.com/QbdbSz68zh
— Ryan (@ry_nguyen) September 6, 2017
Lithuania is known for lead in actions.
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