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golden wrote: View PostInitiating an offense out of spread pick & roll and then running options out of the initial action aren't really comparable to the point of saying, hey we are running the same offense as so & so, IMO.
I hate to bring Kyrie up again, but it amazes me that DanH thinks it's a terrible idea for a team to make Kyrie the focal point in their offense, but doing the same with Valanciunas is a good one. We are talking about gulfs in offensive capability here.
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Quirk wrote: View PostNeither of us has any clue what other teams offered. Young, yet proven, elite rebounding and scoring big men on team friendly contracts are extremely valuable assets, this is not a question. We have no other simular assets, Lowry is not young, DeRozan is not on a team-friendly contract, Poeltl is not proven.
Carroll was neither young nor productive, and not on a team-friendly contract. There is no comparison.
JV is our most valuable trade asset. SInce we're locked in to the Lowry/DeRozan/Casey era, which likely means 50 wins and a second round exit, and could be achieved without JV, there is a logic to trading him in order to build for the post-Lowry era.
So, is JV, currently, more valuable as a trade asset than an on-court asset to this team at this time?
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Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View PostI didn't say we're running the same offense as other teams in the league. I said the way we're using DeRozan isn't drastically different from how other teams are using lead guards who are good slashers and playmakers for themselves or others off the dribble. Tons and tons of pick and roll ball handler possessions and a lot of drives to the basket. Not sure why he's trying to act like the way we use DeMar is reinventing the wheel in order to justify some radical change to a JV-centered offense in a few years. JV is not good enough to center an offense around.
I hate to bring Kyrie up again, but it amazes me that DanH thinks it's a terrible idea for a team to make Kyrie the focal point in their offense, but doing the same with Valanciunas is a good one. We are talking about gulfs in offensive capability here.
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DanH wrote: View PostWhen did I ever say it was a bad idea to make Kyrie the focal point of a offence?
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Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View PostThere was a debate in the offseason thread over KeonClark's comment that Kyrie contributes to losing than winning. I argued against that and then you made several points in favor of the claim. If a player contributes more to losing than winning, it follows that centering your team around them is probably not a good idea, no?
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DanH wrote: View PostBuilding an offence around a player (like we do with DeMar) and building a team around a player (like we do with Lowry) are two very different things.
Do you seriously think that building an offence around Valanciunas is a good idea?
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Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View PostWell it's building the offence around with Kyrie which you still suggested is a bad idea, considering they have other players (Horford, Hayward) who perform better in impact stats.
Do you seriously think that building an offence around Valanciunas is a good idea?
I don't think building an offence around Valanciunas is a good idea with the options we have. That's what I've been saying. A few years ago, when DD was looking pretty useless, it was an idea worth pursuing (running offence through JV and Lowry). Similarly, depending on what talent is on the team when the window closes, an offence centered around JV-Wright PnR with heavy roll man looks could be pretty good compared to the alternatives. Not definitively, but if DeMar and Lowry are both gone, JV is certainly a more viable candidate to centre the offence on than any of the other young guys, as it stands today.
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Also, Irving had a higher RPM than Horford did last year.
My concern with Irving was slightly different in the two discussions around him. In the idea of Lowry for Irving, my concern was that Irving's greatest value is in the DeRozan role - lead heavy usage scorer, where his teammates can bring star-level impact. Him playing beside DeRozan seems to take both players out of their most effective role and leave the team without that backbone that leads to real success.
In the BOS discussion, my concern was that BOS doesn't really have a star level player (Hayward is closest, and his impact stats are like half of what Lowry's have been the last couple seasons), so blowing their assets on a lead scorer (especially a lead scorer who may or may not be a significant upgrade on the lead scorer they traded away in the deal) when they still lack that true star (and when they passed on guys like George and especially Butler earlier in the summer), seems like a bad move.
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DanH wrote: View PostAgain, please find me a place where I said building an offence around Kyrie is a bad idea.
I don't think building an offence around Valanciunas is a good idea with the options we have. That's what I've been saying. A few years ago, when DD was looking pretty useless, it was an idea worth pursuing (running offence through JV and Lowry). Similarly, depending on what talent is on the team when the window closes, an offence centered around JV-Wright PnR with heavy roll man looks could be pretty good compared to the alternatives. Not definitively, but if DeMar and Lowry are both gone, JV is certainly a more viable candidate to centre the offence on than any of the other young guys, as it stands today.
For your second point, what would be the intention of this? A tanking effort post DeMar-Kyle-Ibaka, or to actually win. If it's the former, it'd be better to trade JV (who will be 28 in 3 years, so will Wright for that matter) for what we can get in terms of picks or prospects if he's magically still here, and actually completely bottom out for a high draft pick to get REAL elite talent in. If it's the latter, well it's not going to work. A team centered around JV is not a team that is going to win many games or probably even make the playoffs. So I don't see any scenario where that's a good idea. I do not want to be in 7-11 no man's land.
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Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View PostWhen was this? Lowry wasn't that good in JV's rookie season so it couldn't have been then. Or are you talking about 14-15 when DeMar had just had the best season of his career the year before and had a dip?
For your second point, what would be the intention of this? A tanking effort post DeMar-Kyle-Ibaka, or to actually win. If it's the former, it'd be better to trade JV (who will be 28 in 3 years, so will Wright for that matter) for what we can get in terms of picks or prospects if he's magically still here, and actually completely bottom out for a high draft pick to get REAL elite talent in. If it's the latter, well it's not going to work. A team centered around JV is not a team that is going to win many games or probably even make the playoffs. So I don't see any scenario where that's a good idea. I do not want to be in 7-11 no man's land.
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DanH wrote: View PostStrategy within the offence is totally separate from top level team tear down decisions. Obviously if they are tanking, JV won't be on the team. Heck, I think they should tank at that point. I'm not advocating for doing this - I literally only said that they definitely shouldn't centre an offence around him during this window, and that any discussion about that should be limited to after the window.
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It's actually shocking how much taking JV out of the starting lineup improved us in the playoffs.
In 44 minutes with our regular starting lineup of Lowry-DD-Carroll-Ibaka-JV we were -24.7 netRTG with 105.6 oRTG and a putrid 130.3 dRTG. In about the same minutes (43) in the JV to the bench starting lineup of Lowry-DD-Powell-Carroll-Ibaka we got slightly better on offense (110.0 oRTG), way better on defense (92.6 dRTG) and way better overall +17.4 netRTG.
Meanwhile, the idea that we would get killed on the glass didn't happen. We were worse on the offensive glass which is expected but shot 5% better in TS% to compensate, and we were better on the defensive glass and rebounding overall.
Small sample size but it's also the ONLY sample we have of the new team with Lowry really and against tough competition in a playoff setting.
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Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View PostIt's actually shocking how much taking JV out of the starting lineup improved us in the playoffs.
In 44 minutes with our regular starting lineup of Lowry-DD-Carroll-Ibaka-JV we were -24.7 netRTG with 105.6 oRTG and a putrid 130.3 dRTG. In about the same minutes (43) in the JV to the bench starting lineup of Lowry-DD-Powell-Carroll-Ibaka we got slightly better on offense (110.0 oRTG), way better on defense (92.6 dRTG) and way better overall +17.4 netRTG.
Meanwhile, the idea that we would get killed on the glass didn't happen. We were worse on the offensive glass which is expected but shot 5% better in TS% to compensate, and we were better on the defensive glass and rebounding overall.
Small sample size but it's also the ONLY sample we have of the new team with Lowry really and against tough competition in a playoff setting.@Chr1st1anL
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Chr1s1anL wrote: View PostThis is why I want Ibaka to play Center. Just replace Carroll with Siakam. You have a fast/switchy starting line up.
This is why I'm so pissed about this summer we don't even have any damn options. We don't have a single reliable player at the 3/4 spot who can defend and shoot. The closest thing we have to that is Miles and he's 6'6 and not actually good defensively.
EDIT: Sorry overreacted a bit. Siakam actually could work on the defensive end though, it's just offensively I think the spacing would be really poor, which would probably somewhat offset the boon we get on defense. It's not a bad idea just not ideal.Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Tue Sep 12, 2017, 11:51 AM.
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