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  • special1 wrote: View Post
    JV was probably the worst passer on the team though. Does this not contribute to our problems with passing??

    JV fandoms are yelling that the guards ISO and don't pass.....Well guess what JV is the same.

    But he's 23..... Is starting to sound like an excuse. He should know how to pass the ball by now. This will be his 4th year.

    I'm really looking for improvement in his passing especially. He doesn't need to be our Joakim Noah, he just needs to be better than this... Much better.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Apples to oranges.

    He only gets 17 front court touches per game.

    He is also 3rd in the entire league in points per shot at 1.48.

    Comment


    • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
      So what is the point here? Run the offense through JV? No, not quite. He isn't a superstar. But get him involved with some touches and get him the ball when he presents in or around the key. He often doesn't do his part to hold his position but there are also many times when he has the position and the pass either never comes or it is *fake*pump*fake*pump*pass*.

      [/COLOR]
      Love it. I don't think you are saying anything different. I might see a bit more blame falling on him, but even then, its gonna happen, he's not a star...yet.

      My take is simple, JV isn't being held back, he simply isn't quite there yet. Chicken and egg theory abut how he gets there.

      Comment


      • Superjudge wrote: View Post
        Love it. I don't think you are saying anything different. I might see a bit more blame falling on him, but even then, its gonna happen, he's not a star...yet.

        My take is simple, JV isn't being held back, he simply isn't quite there yet. Chicken and egg theory abut how he gets there.
        We agree he is never going to be a superstar.

        I absolutely disagree that he has not been held back.

        Comment


        • DanH wrote: View Post
          The top PnR teams use about 8.5% of their possessions on PnR roll man action. The Raptors are near the bottom of the league at 5.5%. Over the course of a game that's about 3-4 extra roller finishes.
          Counterpart to thatt, Tyler Hansbrough's PnR frequency was 21.2%, Patrick Patterson 17.0%, Amir Johnson 24.1%, and Jonas Valanciunas 8.5% . half of the second lowest player.

          Is such a low frequency an indication of JV's inability to execute the PnR correctly?

          Comment


          • Superjudge wrote: View Post
            You will never, and have never seen a pick and roll run in volume and you know it. Add to that, an NBA defence will take how long to adjust to that game if your big can't pop and shoot?
            Utah used to run a fair few of them, SA spurs run alot, LAC runs them with two bigs taking turns, Kidd and Dirk ran them to a championship. And JV can shoot the freethrow at 80%, so logic dictates that he can make a pick and pop shot.

            Listen, I can only say this shit so many times then its a waste of time. You guys cherry pick small parts of posts and ignore the entirety of the message, seemingly just to argue.
            Yes some poster do that, some posters do not.

            The sentiment on this forum is that EVERYTHING bad with Toronto starts and ends with Casey. Its sad, and simply inaccurate. When we look at JV, people act as if this guy is this super talent that is being purposely held back, or somehow having his chances at greatness diminished by a GM, Coach, assistants, a trainer and 12 teammates that simply don't understand the game enough to maximize his game.
            That is not true, but he certainly adds to it. I for one feel that the entire pecking order needs restructured as we cannot try to run a Michael Jordan type of offense without michael Jordan.

            sometimes. the player himself just isnt good enough yet.
            Agreed, but sometimes a team needs to put that player into a position to score to help him out. JV has done nothing to show he is not worthy to have a little added responsibility.

            the guards look to pass as a last resort because when they do pass, he fumbles and bumble sit around, never passes out effectively, turns it over, etc. Players are ruthless that way and you know it. You can either be realistic, or you can look for little mirages of injustice.... I prefer reality.
            You know this is wrong, a major part of passing to your bigs in a p&R situation is knowing when and where to hit them. Most of those passes to him that he "fumbles and whatnot" are behind him, too low, too high and almost always too late. He needs to be given the ball sooner in most cases which leads to the conclusion that the passes are a last resort.

            When he has an established position in a post up he doesn't fumble very often, and certainly no more than most other players his age and position.

            I don't even dislike JV, I think he's a baddass.
            You spelled Badass wrong, or was that because he had to pick up sextra "D" because of poor defense from guard play?

            Comment


            • Superjudge wrote: View Post
              I agree. And art of that for him will be getting to where he is ready to shoot that 15 footer when he's open. He still panics with the ball a little. I'm not worried.... he can shoot, his Ft% shows that..... he just needs a little "Namaste" in his diet hahhaa
              I think he is hesitant to shoot at times, I dont know where that comes from, but I dont think its because he doesnt think he can make it.

              Comment


              • Superjudge wrote: View Post
                You will never, and have never seen a pick and roll run in volume and you know it.
                Utah Jazz. Stockton. Malone.

                Comment


                • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                  PLAYER Front court touches per game Pts per half court touch
                  Kyle Lowry 68.9 0.258
                  DeMar DeRozan 51.2 0.392
                  Grevies Vasquez 49.4 0.191
                  Lou Williams 36.0 0.431
                  Amir Johnson 23.8 0.388
                  Patrick Patterson 22.5 0.356
                  Terrence Ross 20.5 0.479
                  James Johnson 18.3 0.433
                  Jonas Valanciunas 17.2 0.701
                  PsychoT 7.9 0.465

                  From table you can clearly see JV gets fewest number of touches in front court of any rotational player except Hansbrough. However Hansbrough also plays about half the minutes. So JV's involvement is on part with Tyler F*cking Hansbrough. Let that sink in. As that sinks in look at the points per half court touch.

                  However data provided is a little biased obviously because guards are by very nature going to get more touches than bigs. So lets compare to league.

                  His points per half court touch is actually #2 in league among guys who play trailing only Whiteside (0.849) who is a lob machine due to athleticism combined with length. Bigs such as Vucevic, Jefferson, Howard, and Gortat are all in 0.53-0.56 range.


                  Now lets look at number of half court touches other bigs get:

                  Drummond (no post game) 19.7
                  Brook Lopez 25.1
                  Anthony Davis 37.1
                  DeAndre Jordan (no post game) 18.2
                  Kanter 34.6
                  Pekovic 20.7
                  Al Jefferson 29.2
                  Dwight Howard 28.3
                  Vucevic 35.6
                  Gortat 22.7
                  Dirk 33.4
                  Monroe 31.3
                  Cousins 48.7
                  Ibaka 29.2
                  Tyson Chandler 21.4
                  Bosh 45.6
                  Hibbert 23.6
                  Pau Gasol 40.5
                  Dieng 23.9
                  Marc Gasol 45.0
                  Z-Bo 34.0


                  So what is the point here? Run the offense through JV? No, not quite. He isn't a superstar. But get him involved with some touches and get him the ball when he presents in or around the key. He often doesn't do his part to hold his position but there are also many times when he has the position and the pass either never comes or it is *fake*pump*fake*pump*pass*.

                  I would suggest, given his skill set and production, he should be somewhere in the 25-30 range which would be similar to Dieng/Brook Lopez to Al Jefferson/Monroe. From there he would be a threat to be doubled and he would absolutely need to work on his passing...but that is something that should have been a focus of development the last 2 seasons when the Raps were trying to win all those super important regular season games.
                  You made a lot of sense until your last comment. Development mostly comes in the offseason, then work with coaches in practice, then playing time. SJ can be over the top sometimes, but the Spurs story he posted seems to run counter to your opinion on forcefeeding NBA minutes to develop players.

                  That's why I'm glad the Raptors are limiting his time with the Lithuanian team. They know offseason practice/skill development is far more important than game time.
                  If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                  Comment


                  • Superjudge wrote: View Post
                    Love it. I don't think you are saying anything different. I might see a bit more blame falling on him, but even then, its gonna happen, he's not a star...yet.

                    My take is simple, JV isn't being held back, he simply isn't quite there yet. Chicken and egg theory abut how he gets there.
                    It is very hard to stand out against your competition when your touches and minutes are far less than any of them, but your production your production if FAR superior when compared.

                    Comment


                    • DanH wrote: View Post
                      Please stop with the raw on-off numbers, my eyes hurt.
                      But it's OK for you to use DRTG and ORTG stats as individual measures when these stats are as much correlated the on-off stats, if not more

                      There is a lot of noise in all these measures and if you use one, I don't see why someone hould restrict themselves from using another just as good (or bad) stat to "demonstrate" his point.

                      Comment


                      • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                        You made a lot of sense until your last comment. Development mostly comes in the offseason, then work with coaches in practice, then playing time. SJ can be over the top sometimes, but the Spurs story he posted seems to run counter to your opinion on forcefeeding NBA minutes to develop players.

                        That's why I'm glad the Raptors are limiting his time with the Lithuanian team. They know offseason practice/skill development is far more important than game time.
                        the point is, why are his minutes limited. Statistically he is showing that his faults werent costing the team any more than anyone elses, but his pros FAR outweighed ANYONES on the team

                        Comment


                        • 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
                          You made a lot of sense until your last comment. Development mostly comes in the offseason, then work with coaches in practice, then playing time. SJ can be over the top sometimes, but the Spurs story he posted seems to run counter to your opinion on forcefeeding NBA minutes to develop players.

                          That's why I'm glad the Raptors are limiting his time with the Lithuanian team. They know offseason practice/skill development is far more important than game time.
                          There is no substitute for in game experience. None.

                          I was a total late bloomer. I didn't break out until a guy ahead of me got injured. I struggled at first but it was playing in games and learning from in game experience that sent my development on exponential curve.

                          All the other stuff is a given. Without in game reps it doesn't matter.

                          Comment


                          • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                            We agree he is never going to be a superstar.

                            I absolutely disagree that he has not been held back.
                            I might not even disagree that he is being held... i just disagree as to whether or not its a good idea.

                            They are taking time with this guy. he needs to be stronger upstairs and he knows it. They don't want him to be average, or just above, they want him to learn to be a star.... I actually think he can do it.

                            Comment


                            • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                              But it's OK for you to use DRTG and ORTG stats as individual measures when these stats are as much correlated the on-off stats, if not more

                              There is a lot of noise in all these measures and if you use one, I don't see why someone hould restrict themselves from using another just as good (or bad) stat to "demonstrate" his point.
                              Yeah... to quote what a wise-man once said... "owned". Using dRTG, oRTG, on-off or whatever to gauge individual performance is literally one of the dumbest analyses that can be made statistically.

                              Comment


                              • big boi wrote: View Post
                                Utah Jazz. Stockton. Malone.
                                Suns. Nash. Amare.
                                Raps. Jose. Bosh.


                                etc..., etc..

                                Comment

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