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  • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    And that is the ridiculousness of the criticism.

    He doesn't turn the ball over. .
    That you say this....troubles me.

    He was a nightmare last year.

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    • Superjudge wrote: View Post
      That you say this....troubles me.

      He was a nightmare last year.
      Any support for that at all? Statistics are against you.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • Superjudge wrote: View Post
        That you say this....troubles me.

        He was a nightmare last year.
        Do you remember him turning the ball over because that was your predisposed opinion and each turnover became a self fulfilling prophecy?

        Or do you cling to one or two games as judgment for the entire season?

        Because those are the only ways he was a nightmare on turnovers last season.

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        • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
          Do you remember him turning the ball over because that was your predisposed opinion and each turnover became a self fulfilling prophecy?

          Or do you cling to one or two games as judgment for the entire season?

          Because those are the only ways he was a nightmare on turnovers last season.
          Amir turned it over more than JV, on much less usage, but he's the sure handed high IQ veteran. Early reputations and initial perceptions are hard to shake.

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          • DanH wrote: View Post
            Uh, exactly? Centres don't get the usage here (and type of usage) that allows for assist rates they would see elsewhere. They get the ball at the very end of the play, on put backs, or on post ups where no one else moves at all. Very little chance to get assists.

            Hansbrough's AST% was about half his career value, precisely because of the way C's are utilized (or the lack thereof) in this offence. This is the context under which JV's assist numbers have existed his entire career. Hard to develop a passing game when you are in a system that suppresses opportunity for C's to get assists.
            I'm sorry but you'll have to clarify this for me... You think that Hansbrough going from assisting on 4 out of every 100 of his teammates baskets while he's on the floor to 2 out of every 100 is meaningful? Never mind the fact that Hayes surpassed his career AST % last year with the Raptors and it completely debunks the entire thing.

            This

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            • golden wrote: View Post
              Amir turned it over more than JV, on much less usage, but he's the sure handed high IQ veteran. Early reputations and initial perceptions are hard to shake.
              [ ] #DidntProveEm
              [x] #ProvedEm

              Comment


              • Fully wrote: View Post
                Why do you get so sensitive about these things? I don't think anyone is saying that Jonas isn't a good young player who's still very far from reaching finished product status. However his playmaking was some of the least effective in the entire league last season… some of it due to the style of play of the team, some of it due to his teammates and a LOT of it because JV lacks awareness and feel offensively. It's not an indictment of the guy's entire career… just a legit criticism backed up by a lot of data. It's like you can't just have a balanced conversation about anything… everything has to be one extreme of the other.
                See this is where there is an argument.

                Your eye test says that he is a bad passer.

                My eye test says he is an average passer right now and could get better with more reps (He has shown an ability to throw the cross court pass over the defense). The system is crap and it is stifling his ability to show it.

                Also, for the record, I think JV and the Raptors will be most successful by using JV as the #1 option. Being the only team in the east that plays out of the post may be very effective. The only reason why JV shouldnt be the #1 option is if we land a true superstar. Until then DD can take the back seat (because he frankly is a shitty volume scorer with ACTUALLY BAD court vision and passing)

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                • Fully wrote: View Post
                  I'm sorry but you'll have to clarify this for me... You think that Hansbrough going from assisting on 4 out of every 100 of his teammates baskets while he's on the floor to 2 out of every 100 is meaningful? Never mind the fact that Hayes surpassed his career AST % last year with the Raptors and it completely debunks the entire thing.

                  This
                  If +/- 2% is our threshold of significance, then applying that same standard to Jonas puts him in the same tier, AST%-wise, as dozens of other players.
                  "Stop eating your sushi."
                  "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                  "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                  - Jack Armstrong

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                  • The JV turnover stuff is overdone but it's largely a reflection of the fact that he had some real stinkers last year with 5 turnovers that sticks in people's minds.

                    On the assist point, it's less about AST% and per game numbers than it is about JV not being any sort of threat to make plays for other out of the post. Just on quick glance, in 80 games last year he failed to record a single assist in 49 of those games. He recorded 5 assists in the entire month of January, including a stretch of 11 straight games where he failed to record a single one. He had a similar 7 game stretch in November.

                    Sure, system and style has something to do with it but when you are failing to record a single assist in ~60% of the games you play, it surely has mostly to do with your ability in that area.

                    I wouldn't have thought that pointing out JV's deficiencies as a passer and playmaker would be controversial as they are really his only major issue offensively and are, therefore, so glaring because of it.

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                    • Whats was his assist to turnover ratio last year?
                      @Chr1st1anL

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                      • slaw wrote: View Post
                        The JV turnover stuff is overdone but it's largely a reflection of the fact that he had some real stinkers last year with 5 turnovers that sticks in people's minds.

                        On the assist point, it's less about AST% and per game numbers than it is about JV not being any sort of threat to make plays for other out of the post. Just on quick glance, in 80 games last year he failed to record a single assist in 49 of those games. He recorded 5 assists in the entire month of January, including a stretch of 11 straight games where he failed to record a single one. He had a similar 7 game stretch in November.

                        Sure, system and style has something to do with it but when you are failing to record a single assist in ~60% of the games you play, it surely has mostly to do with your ability in that area.

                        I wouldn't have thought that pointing out JV's deficiencies as a passer and playmaker would be controversial as they are really his only major issue offensively and are, therefore, so glaring because of it.

                        He had just 4.5 post ups per game on average.

                        It goes far beyond system and style of play. It is basic basketball principles and fundamentals. When you don't have the ball, you should be moving to create an angle to receive a pass. This isn't just about JV, this was a team issue. When one guy posts up, everyone else stayed in one place and watched.



                        I don't think many people pushing this have actually ever played in the post. There is definitely an ignorance to the nuances of the post game being displayed. People think catching the ball around the rim and laying it in is easy. No. No it isn't. You have to play the angles, react to the ball movement before it reaches its destination, seal-pin-hold your man THEN actually have teammates capable of making the pass before you can actually get the ball. Then once you get the ball, you need movement off it. It is much different than catching on wing foul line extended or top of key because you have 22+ feet to work with to the rim versus in the post you are working with a much smaller area. You need your teammates to move otherwise there is no pass. Even with a double team, 3 guys can easily guard 4 standing still.

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                        • Jonas averages last year /48 minutes:
                          Assists: 0.7 - Turnovers: 2.5 - Shots: 14.9 - Free Throws: 6.3 ... or 0.3 assist to turnover

                          For comparison, numbers for five other randomly selected centres:
                          Marc Gasol: 5.5 - 3.1 - 19.1 - 7.9 ... or 1.8 assist to turnover
                          DeAndre Jordan: 1.0 - 1.9 - 9.1 - 8.0 ... or 0.5
                          Andre Drummond: 1.1 - 2.3 - 18.4 - 7.0 ... or 0.5
                          Rudy Gobert: 2.4 - 2.5 - 9.5 - 6.1 ... or 1.0
                          Tyson Chandler: 1.8 - 2.2 - 9.2 - 5.4 ...or 0.8

                          So basically, JV has an average number of turnovers and free throws, a slightly above average number of shots (though he isn't featured like Marc Gasol or Drummond) ... and the lowest number of assists, and worst assist to turnover ratio, of anyone listed.

                          P.S. It's worth noting that Rudy Gobert's assists/48 minutes jumped from 0.8 to 2.4 assists in a season. That gives me hope for JV.

                          Comment


                          • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                            He had just 4.5 post ups per game on average.

                            It goes far beyond system and style of play. It is basic basketball principles and fundamentals. When you don't have the ball, you should be moving to create an angle to receive a pass. This isn't just about JV, this was a team issue. When one guy posts up, everyone else stayed in one place and watched.



                            I don't think many people pushing this have actually ever played in the post. There is definitely an ignorance to the nuances of the post game being displayed. People think catching the ball around the rim and laying it in is easy. No. No it isn't. You have to play the angles, react to the ball movement before it reaches its destination, seal-pin-hold your man THEN actually have teammates capable of making the pass before you can actually get the ball. Then once you get the ball, you need movement off it. It is much different than catching on wing foul line extended or top of key because you have 22+ feet to work with to the rim versus in the post you are working with a much smaller area. You need your teammates to move otherwise there is no pass. Even with a double team, 3 guys can easily guard 4 standing still.
                            I posted this somewhere else a while ago, but go watch YouTube clips of JV post-ups (some of his high scoring game highlights are on there) vs. any other prominent post player, especially those who pass well. Instead of watching the post player, watch what his teammates are doing. The Raptors consistently had zero movement after feeding the post, and passing lanes to perimeter players were defended. On better quality teams, the guard who fed the post consistently cuts through the key to provide option #1, weak-side players flash to the key or cut across the baseline, other perimeter players start positioning themselves to grab rebounds, and guys like Ginobli hop up and down with their hands high in the air out on the 3 pt line, ready for a pass. The Raptors rarely (very rarely) did any of this. The only guy I can see regularly move off the ball is James Johnson, who likes to position himself for an offensive rebound once JV goes into his post moves.

                            JV is not a natural/gifted passer like M.Gasol or Noah, but I have no reason to believe he's an inherently worse passer than any of the average passing big men in the league. He's young and he's had very little opportunity to develop this part of his game. Bosh and Demar got to learn to deal with double teams through tons of reps. When a player first starts to face double teams as a young guy, it's typically very ugly to watch. But the coach gives him reps because that scorer needs to learn how to attack or pass out of a double team. Jonas should be getting reps to develop his passing, and he isn't being given any by the offensive system/his motionless teammates. Zach Lowe has a great point about the potential for post-dominant big men to be offensive initiators who cause the defense to collapse and kick it out for open 3's - finding open 3's doesn't mean you need to put five 3 point shooters on the floor. What if you use a post player to find those open shots instead? The Raps have the potential to develop that advantage with Jonas, who is an efficient post scorer in a league where a lot of teams want to play an undersized guy at his position. I'd like to see the team being proactive in making use of their own strengths instead of following trends.
                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                            • When it is not Casey's fault, it is his teammates's fault or the lack of experience.

                              Apologists unite?

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                              • Just watched a few of his career high games, Carroll instead of jj there will give him more options to pass out of the post, but he clearly wasn't asked to pass when he got the ball down low, similar to how demar is asked to be a scorer. That's their jobs that Casey won't stray away from

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