Everything Valanciunas

[white men can't jump]

Ok, do you think JV is a good passer?

I don't think anything about how he's being used lets someone make a real judgment. He's clearly not Sabonis or Divac gifted. But in terms of watching him make plays, there's nothing that really makes me think he's worse than, say, Pat or Amir. The big difference is those guys spent a lot more time on the perimeter than him, which is where the ball spent most of its time in the Raptors offence. They basically get more assists by default by having more exchanges with our higher usage perimeter players.

We've seen Jonas make kickouts from the post. We've seen him make fine high-low passes, big to big and sometimes on a nice little give-n-go type play where a guy like Lowry might pass it to Jonas up high, cut around him to use him as a screener and lose his man, leaving the pass open to Lowry right under the bucket. However we don't run plays to create this kind of thing as often as we could...not even close. On his post ups the entry passer often tries to pull his man to the weak side...but that just ends up with all 4 of our shooters on one congested side of the court and no good outlets. And it's not like we use cutters a lot either to try and force the D to react and open up passing lanes.

He doesn't lack the basic skills to get more assists. How many more? I don't know. I don't think you're looking at a passing beast out there. But even with the skills he has right now, I could easily see him getting 2-3 per game if he was used better and the sets we ran actually had decent motion and passing angles. Passing is also something for bigs that can develop a bit more slowly as they have to get used to reading situations. Noah wasn't a very good passer right off the bat. The guy he credits for helping him a lot is Brad Miller, a good big man passer who also took a few seasons to fully realize his potential there as well.

So I'm definitely not going to write him off when he's barely had the chance to showcase/develop his passing ability.

[Chr1s1anL]

I don't think anything about how he's being used lets someone make a real judgment. He's clearly not Sabonis or Divac gifted. But in terms of watching him make plays, there's nothing that really makes me think he's worse than, say, Pat or Amir. The big difference is those guys spent a lot more time on the perimeter than him, which is where the ball spent most of its time in the Raptors offence. They basically get more assists by default by having more exchanges with our higher usage perimeter players.

We've seen Jonas make kickouts from the post. We've seen him make fine high-low passes, big to big and sometimes on a nice little give-n-go type play where a guy like Lowry might pass it to Jonas up high, cut around him to use him as a screener and lose his man, leaving the pass open to Lowry right under the bucket. However we don't run plays to create this kind of thing as often as we could...not even close. On his post ups the entry passer often tries to pull his man to the weak side...but that just ends up with all 4 of our shooters on one congested side of the court and no good outlets. And it's not like we use cutters a lot either to try and force the D to react and open up passing lanes.

He doesn't lack the basic skills to get more assists. How many more? I don't know. I don't think you're looking at a passing beast out there. But even with the skills he has right now, I could easily see him getting 2-3 per game if he was used better and the sets we ran actually had decent motion and passing angles. Passing is also something for bigs that can develop a bit more slowly as they have to get used to reading situations. Noah wasn't a very good passer right off the bat. The guy he credits for helping him a lot is Brad Miller, a good big man passer who also took a few seasons to fully realize his potential there as well.

So I'm definitely not going to write him off when he's barely had the chance to showcase/develop his passing ability.

Why are you arguing if you don't even have an opinion on the subject?

[white men can't jump]

Why are you arguing if you don't even have an opinion on the subject?

That's why I wasn't for most of it, because my opinion is, at least I think, a bit more balanced than many of the people in the discussion...but I'm arguing that you also shouldn't be arguing if you can't properly use or are intentionally misusing stats in your arguments. And that anyone who's taking an absolutist stance that he's a terrible/horrific/all-time worst passer is making a pitifully flawed argument.

*Oh, and if you read my post, you'll probably notice I do have a clear opinion on the subject of his passing. Just because it's not an absolutist "he's great" or "he's terrible", doesn't make it less of an opinion. He's shown the ability to make passes you expect of your C. He hasn't shown a particularly gifted level of passing. He could easily be put in situations to get more assists where he probably would succeed. That is an opinion.

[Axel]

Why are you arguing if you don't even have an opinion on the subject?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you aren't trying to tell someone to not post.

Everyone is free to post on any topic of course.

[Chr1s1anL]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you aren't trying to tell someone to not post.

Everyone is free to post on any topic of course.

His the one saying that the poster saying that JV is a bad passer don't have enough facts to make a real argument. When his here making an argument without even an opinion on the subject.

[consmap]

I don't think anything about how he's being used lets someone make a real judgment. He's clearly not Sabonis or Divac gifted. But in terms of watching him make plays, there's nothing that really makes me think he's worse than, say, Pat or Amir. The big difference is those guys spent a lot more time on the perimeter than him, which is where the ball spent most of its time in the Raptors offence. They basically get more assists by default by having more exchanges with our higher usage perimeter players.

We've seen Jonas make kickouts from the post. We've seen him make fine high-low passes, big to big and sometimes on a nice little give-n-go type play where a guy like Lowry might pass it to Jonas up high, cut around him to use him as a screener and lose his man, leaving the pass open to Lowry right under the bucket. However we don't run plays to create this kind of thing as often as we could...not even close. On his post ups the entry passer often tries to pull his man to the weak side...but that just ends up with all 4 of our shooters on one congested side of the court and no good outlets. And it's not like we use cutters a lot either to try and force the D to react and open up passing lanes.

He doesn't lack the basic skills to get more assists. How many more? I don't know. I don't think you're looking at a passing beast out there. But even with the skills he has right now, I could easily see him getting 2-3 per game if he was used better and the sets we ran actually had decent motion and passing angles. Passing is also something for bigs that can develop a bit more slowly as they have to get used to reading situations. Noah wasn't a very good passer right off the bat. The guy he credits for helping him a lot is Brad Miller, a good big man passer who also took a few seasons to fully realize his potential there as well.

So I'm definitely not going to write him off when he's barely had the chance to showcase/develop his passing ability.

Jonas is pretty good at feeding the post too. Ask Vasquez

[Chr1s1anL]

That's why I wasn't for most of it, because my opinion is, at least I think, a bit more balanced than many of the people in the discussion...but I'm arguing that you also shouldn't be arguing if you can't properly use or are intentionally misusing stats in your arguments. And that anyone who's taking an absolutist stance that he's a terrible/horrific/all-time worst passer is making a pitifully flawed argument.

*Oh, and if you read my post, you'll probably notice I do have a clear opinion on the subject of his passing. Just because it's not an absolutist "he's great" or "he's terrible", doesn't make it less of an opinion. He's shown the ability to make passes you expect of your C. He hasn't shown a particularly gifted level of passing. He could easily be put in situations to get more assists where he probably would succeed. That is an opinion.

Dd has made 3s before but, his obviously bad at shooting 3s right?

[mcHAPPY]

Dd has made 3s before but, his obviously bad at shooting 3s right?

Everything V-A-L-A-N-C-I-U-N-A-S

[Chr1s1anL]

Everything V-A-L-A-N-C-I-U-N-A-S

Just trying to understand his logic. He says that JV is not a terrible passer cause his made the pass before. I countered with DD being a terrible 3 pointer even though his made 3s before. That all relax

[big boi]

The only passing I really care about JV doing is passing out of the double team. The more he is established as a low post scoring threat, the more he will get doubled, the more he will need to pass.

I argued all of last year that as our most important player (most valuable, highest upside, sure... IMO) he should more often have been used as a key scoring option. That we should have looked to go inside and exploit his size more consistently. I argued that that experience would have helped him learn the post game. To be doubled you have to be able to score. It takes experience / feel to learn how and when to pass out of the double and it takes a team approach to feed the post and to position a player to catch and shoot if they're open cuz their man is doubling and to run wing / guards players to the other side of the half court to make doubles more difficult, without leaving a shooter open that is easy to pass to.

If JV isn't being doubled, I'm content for him to have the green light. I believe that to be a more efficient shot than whatever DD or KL would have up their sleeve. Any inter post play, high low passing with Scola or 2016 / 2017 PF I view as gravy.

[Axel]

His the one saying that the poster saying that JV is a bad passer don't have enough facts to make a real argument. When his here making an argument without even an opinion on the subject.

Well the facts were proven to be inaccurate and without appropriate context look even worse. That is completely a fair point to make.

Everyone has an opinion and is free to share. The fact that he posted clearly demonstrates some form of opinion, so no, your line of questioning does not make sense (or follow forum rules).

[big boi]

Is Demarre a decent post passer? Ideally KL would be the primary passer to the post as PG (and a good shooter) but Demarre would seem to be another good option with his stroke (and size to get his shot off if opponent tries to recover after doubling JV, or Scola).

With JV and Scola inside this team HAS to change its approach and force the ball inside more.

[Axel]

Just trying to understand his logic. He says that JV is not a terrible passer cause his made the pass before. I countered with DD being a terrible 3 pointer even though his made 3s before. That all relax

Sample size. Positional expectations. Offensive scheme.

Pick one, cause all debunk that logic.

[Mindlessness]

Is Demarre a decent post passer? Ideally KL would be the primary passer to the post as PG (and a good shooter) but Demarre would seem to be another good option with his stroke (and size to get his shot off if opponent tries to recover after doubling JV, or Scola).

With JV and Scola inside this team HAS to change its approach and force the ball inside more.

I'm expecting Jonas to learn a lot from Luis about passing/post play in general actually. Wouldn't be surprised if we see marked (as in, more than we expect) improvement from Jonas and reports of him working with Luis.

[Mindlessness]

Just trying to understand his logic. He says that JV is not a terrible passer cause his made the pass before. I countered with DD being a terrible 3 pointer even though his made 3s before. That all relax

DeMar has the opportunity to shoot 3s moreso than Jonas has the opportunity to pass the ball.

Basically, we have way more samples of DeMar being really terrible at shooting 3s than we have of Jonas being really terrible at passing. If you wish to ignore that, please say so.