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  • Henry_Chinaski wrote: View Post
    I don't know. Drummond, Whiteside and Horford are pretty damn good. Gasol is playing at 5 now.
    Well, it's hard to compare against guys like Horford and Pau.

    Pau at this stage is fully a 5, but he's got maybe a couple of good years left? At least as a starter. Could be able to extend his career as a backup 5 if he wants. It's debatable if he's still better at this point. This may be the last year he's even in the conversation.

    Horford has basically played out of position his whole career, so I just prefer comparing him to PFs. I don't mind if you want to throw him in the debate, but I would still think most every team in the league would not choose Horford out of all these guys to be their starting C the next 5 years. They'd probably be salivating to put him next to one of them. That's why I want him for the Raps. He'd fit in so well at PF for us. And it's no coincidence ATL went out and got Splitter this summer to finally have a decent C, but Horford will still play a lot of minutes at C on their team. He's a great player though, and still has lots of good years left. Wouldn't be surprised at all if Detroit went after him hard this summer too. He'd fit in great for them and they'll have tons of capspace.

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    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      Well, it's hard to compare against guys like Horford and Pau.

      Pau at this stage is fully a 5, but he's got maybe a couple of good years left? At least as a starter. Could be able to extend his career as a backup 5 if he wants. It's debatable if he's still better at this point. This may be the last year he's even in the conversation.

      Horford has basically played out of position his whole career, so I just prefer comparing him to PFs. I don't mind if you want to throw him in the debate, but I would still think most every team in the league would not choose Horford out of all these guys to be their starting C the next 5 years. They'd probably be salivating to put him next to one of them. That's why I want him for the Raps. He'd fit in so well at PF for us. And it's no coincidence ATL went out and got Splitter this summer to finally have a decent C, but Horford will still play a lot of minutes at C on their team. He's a great player though, and still has lots of good years left. Wouldn't be surprised at all if Detroit went after him hard this summer too. He'd fit in great for them and they'll have tons of capspace.
      Agree on pretty much everything. But as of now, Horford and Gasol are playing at the 5 (like Bosh did a couple of season ago, even though all three of them are 4s). If we're talking about pure centers that don't and can't play any other position, Jonas would be a top 3 center in EC.
      About Horford - I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of teams going after him. He's probably second best UFA. Raps should go after him as well although I'm pretty sure they won't have the cap space once DD signs a new deal. Rockets, Celtics, Pistons, Charlote, Pacers, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, Portland and Minny can all go after him (Minny probably the least since they're building via draft).
      MeDar ReDozan

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      • Henry_Chinaski wrote: View Post
        Agree on pretty much everything. But as of now, Horford and Gasol are playing at the 5 (like Bosh did a couple of season ago, even though all three of them are 4s). If we're talking about pure centers that don't and can't play any other position, Jonas would be a top 3 center in EC.
        About Horford - I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of teams going after him. He's probably second best UFA. Raps should go after him as well although I'm pretty sure they won't have the cap space once DD signs a new deal. Rockets, Celtics, Pistons, Charlote, Pacers, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, Portland and Minny can all go after him (Minny probably the least since they're building via draft).
        I'm going to ignore the DD part since that's an assumption and could derail everything else...

        But for the teams, I don't think Horford considers a chunk of those due to situation. He'll want to go to a good team. He's not going to the Lakers. I don't know why he'd go to Portland or Phoenix either. Same for Charlotte (they're a worse team in his own division). Mavs? Maybe...but then he'd have to be in weird lineups with Dirk. Not sure why he'd go to the Pacers as he might be played at C there now if Bird is so serious about small ball. Rockets and Pistons would be good fits in terms of personnel. Celtics are a total wildcard. They don't look like an appealing situation for a vet like Horford. They have enough pieces they can move that they might look totally different come summer, though.

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        • Axel wrote: View Post
          Very unlikely. What we are seeing from JV was the draft report on him, he has never had much opportunity to produce for this team in a major way.

          One of the chief complaints about Casey's us of JV is failing to give JV experience in the 4th Q and big situations. The game where Lowry dumped the ball off to JV in the last moments (Orlando game I think) would likely represent the first time that JV has had the ball in his hands with a chance to win the game. If he has been given more opportunities these last few seasons, maybe he is more poised in that situation and wins the game for us (despite getting the ball out of position on a broken play).

          JV is talented and has worked hard to improve. Free him from Casey ball (guard dominated) and he could put up huge numbers ala Drummond.
          So coaches don't get any credit for the development of players under their watch? Casey may have brought JV along more slowly than many would have like (though that's turned out pretty well, hasn't it), but he still started him 228 times out of 233 possible games. Jonas has improved by leaps and bounds while being coached by Casey, that's the long and short of it. He was a good player coming into this league, now he's pretty great.

          (and I told y'all he'd be fine without losing oodles of weight)

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          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            I'm going to ignore the DD part since that's an assumption and could derail everything else...

            But for the teams, I don't think Horford considers a chunk of those due to situation. He'll want to go to a good team. He's not going to the Lakers. I don't know why he'd go to Portland or Phoenix either. Same for Charlotte (they're a worse team in his own division). Mavs? Maybe...but then he'd have to be in weird lineups with Dirk. Not sure why he'd go to the Pacers as he might be played at C there now if Bird is so serious about small ball. Rockets and Pistons would be good fits in terms of personnel. Celtics are a total wildcard. They don't look like an appealing situation for a vet like Horford. They have enough pieces they can move that they might look totally different come summer, though.
            Well, I listed all the teams that I thought would consider signing him. I understand that most of teams don't have a real shot at him. And about DD - it's a sure thing. I don't want that but it is going to happen.
            MeDar ReDozan

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            • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
              So coaches don't get any credit for the development of players under their watch? Casey may have brought JV along more slowly than many would have like (though that's turned out pretty well, hasn't it), but he still started him 228 times out of 233 possible games. Jonas has improved by leaps and bounds while being coached by Casey, that's the long and short of it. He was a good player coming into this league, now he's pretty great.

              (and I told y'all he'd be fine without losing oodles of weight)
              At best, you could say that Casey has shielded JV from burden by reducing his touches, crunch time play and minutes.

              But realistically, Casey has limited JV's opportunity for growth (touches/minutes/4th Q benchings). Casey also specifically told JV to bulk up then openly criticized his for losing speed. Casey also then employed a system that is exactly the opposite for JVs strengths, then openly criticized him for his inability to play that system to his liking (even though he openly doubted whether ANY center could play that system).

              So no, Casey doesn't get any credit for JV. He marginalized, criticized and continually put JV in poor fitting situations, while employing ludicrous double standards when it came to our guards.

              JV is become great because of JV.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

              Comment


              • Axel wrote: View Post
                At best, you could say that Casey has shielded JV from burden by reducing his touches, crunch time play and minutes.

                But realistically, Casey has limited JV's opportunity for growth (touches/minutes/4th Q benchings). Casey also specifically told JV to bulk up then openly criticized his for losing speed. Casey also then employed a system that is exactly the opposite for JVs strengths, then openly criticized him for his inability to play that system to his liking (even though he openly doubted whether ANY center could play that system).

                So no, Casey doesn't get any credit for JV. He marginalized, criticized and continually put JV in poor fitting situations, while employing ludicrous double standards when it came to our guards.

                JV is become great because of JV.
                He's also shielding JJ. Casey sucks. If you can't create your own offense you might as well be a tree

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                • Axel wrote: View Post
                  At best, you could say that Casey has shielded JV from burden by reducing his touches, crunch time play and minutes.

                  But realistically, Casey has limited JV's opportunity for growth (touches/minutes/4th Q benchings). Casey also specifically told JV to bulk up then openly criticized his for losing speed. Casey also then employed a system that is exactly the opposite for JVs strengths, then openly criticized him for his inability to play that system to his liking (even though he openly doubted whether ANY center could play that system).

                  So no, Casey doesn't get any credit for JV. He marginalized, criticized and continually put JV in poor fitting situations, while employing ludicrous double standards when it came to our guards.

                  JV is become great because of JV.
                  And yet, the end result is a star-calibre player who isn't highly entitled, whose defence from when he came into the league is like night and day, and now seems highly capable of playing winning basketball. I get that the player gets the lion's share of the kudos of developing, and that there are plenty of cherries to be picked to show Casey hindered JV, but for developmental coaching the proof is in the pudding - and the JV pudding tastes mighty fine these days.

                  I also don't think that JV has lost much in the way of bulk. He's got himself fitter and his added strength is paying dividends.

                  Comment


                  • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                    And yet, the end result is a star-calibre player who isn't highly entitled, whose defence from when he came into the league is like night and day, and now seems highly capable of playing winning basketball. I get that the player gets the lion's share of the kudos of developing, and that there are plenty of cherries to be picked to show Casey hindered JV, but for developmental coaching the proof is in the pudding - and the JV pudding tastes mighty fine these days.

                    I also don't think that JV has lost much in the way of bulk. He's got himself fitter and his added strength is paying dividends.
                    He was the fifth overall who dropped because of concerns whether he would come over. They don't usually wash out of the league. Casey hasn't done jack with Bebe.

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                    • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                      And yet, the end result is a star-calibre player who isn't highly entitled, whose defence from when he came into the league is like night and day, and now seems highly capable of playing winning basketball. I get that the player gets the lion's share of the kudos of developing, and that there are plenty of cherries to be picked to show Casey hindered JV, but for developmental coaching the proof is in the pudding - and the JV pudding tastes mighty fine these days.

                      I also don't think that JV has lost much in the way of bulk. He's got himself fitter and his added strength is paying dividends.
                      What has Casey done?

                      Other than JV producing at a high level, there isn't a single thing that you can point to as "evidence". Yet there are mountains of evidence that show that JV has continually been put in a poor system fit and has been continually thrown under the bus in post game pressers by the coach.

                      If your sole evidence is that JV is great then I think you are underestimating what he was when he was drafted and the expectations along with them. JV is great and he was expected to be great.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                      Comment


                      • raptors999 wrote: View Post
                        He was the fifth overall who dropped because of concerns whether he would come over. They don't usually wash out of the league. Casey hasn't done jack with Bebe.
                        We don't know that, I guess we'll have to see how Bebe does with the 905 to see how he's developed. Bruno got minutes in the preseason. Our 2nd round rookie is getting rotation minutes. DeMar has made huge strides since earlier in his young career. JV and Ross have gotten a lot of minutes.

                        Yes, Casey has a weird attachment to veterans and winning, but he also puts a lot of time and effort into learning and development. I'd guess that's a big reason (along with competitive continuity) Masai was happy enough to keep him around for this season. We've seen him play rookies, we've seen young player make major progress. The little things you see and hear on and off the court don't tell anywhere close to the whole story.

                        Comment


                        • Axel wrote: View Post
                          What has Casey done?

                          Other than JV producing at a high level, there isn't a single thing that you can point to as "evidence". Yet there are mountains of evidence that show that JV has continually been put in a poor system fit and has been continually thrown under the bus in post game pressers by the coach.

                          If your sole evidence is that JV is great then I think you are underestimating what he was when he was drafted and the expectations along with them. JV is great and he was expected to be great.
                          We also have JV buying in to the organization, Casey included, at what looks like a bargain price.

                          JV is great now, and had great expectations, coming in, but he was good not great coming into this league. Player expectations coming into fruition is the only evidence of any real merit when it comes to evaluating player development.

                          Comment


                          • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                            We don't know that, I guess we'll have to see how Bebe does with the 905 to see how he's developed. Bruno got minutes in the preseason. Our 2nd round rookie is getting rotation minutes. DeMar has made huge strides since earlier in his young career. JV and Ross have gotten a lot of minutes.

                            Yes, Casey has a weird attachment to veterans and winning, but he also puts a lot of time and effort into learning and development. I'd guess that's a big reason (along with competitive continuity) Masai was happy enough to keep him around for this season. We've seen him play rookies, we've seen young player make major progress. The little things you see and hear on and off the court don't tell anywhere close to the whole story.
                            Most of the players who he developed like Ross and Demar know really little. Demar said he's never blue a PnR since Casey has been HC. It's fine if they don't use it but to never practice a standard defense is pretty bad.

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                            • Axel wrote: View Post
                              What has Casey done?

                              Other than JV producing at a high level, there isn't a single thing that you can point to as "evidence". Yet there are mountains of evidence that show that JV has continually been put in a poor system fit and has been continually thrown under the bus in post game pressers by the coach.

                              If your sole evidence is that JV is great then I think you are underestimating what he was when he was drafted and the expectations along with them. JV is great and he was expected to be great.
                              I would also consider the impact of Lithuanian national team. Jonas plays every year since 2011. Two Eurobasket finals, one World cup bronze (3rd place) final, one Olympic bball tournament. For the last three summers he has been a key player, their go to guy and played some really tough games. I know that's a small example because the NT duties are for ~6 weeks a year and the competition level is different too.
                              MeDar ReDozan

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                              • Henry_Chinaski wrote: View Post
                                I would also consider the impact of Lithuanian national team. Jonas plays every year since 2011. Two Eurobasket finals, one World cup bronze (3rd place) final, one Olympic bball tournament. For the last three summers he has been a key player, their go to guy and played some really tough games. I know that's a small example because the NT duties are for ~6 weeks a year and the competition level is different too.
                                I might mention that Jonas was also brought along pretty slowly in that program. I guess the question becomes whether that struggle for playing time/touches helps or hinders a players development, but that comes down to the individual player and their development.

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