Everything Valanciunas

[JawsGT]

I think one big reason why JV looked better last year than this is our defensive scheme change. Last year was more ICE and protecting the paint. We were one of the best defending 2 pointers, but got torched from 3. That worked for the most part and suited JV better, but as the Cleveland playoff series showed, when the primary ball handler is big and has the ability to fire bullet passes to the weak side ( Lebron) and then combined with a bunch of 3 pt threats that defence can get torched as the 3 20+ pt blowouts showed.

This year we seem to be focusing more on defending the perimeter, resulting in more blowby's, thus making JV look bad on occasion.

Ah, that's what I thought and what I was trying to get at in the defence thread. So, is this current scheme better suited to defending CLE, cause like you said they shredded our D last year?

[3inthekeon]

Ah, that's what I thought and what I was trying to get at in the defence thread. So, is this current scheme better suited to defending CLE, cause like you said they shredded our D last year?

Hope the new scheme is better. After I posted that (which was partly guesswork), I googled Lebron ICE defence and came up with this as one of the 1st hits. It was from the game Love hit 8 3's in one quarter.

ICE-d out - There are numerous ways to guard the pick-and-roll, and with LeBron James and Kyrie Irving in attack mode, so slick with the basketball, it forces the defense into a decision.

Portland chose to take away the driving lane early.

"They were ICE-ing the pick-and-rolls and Kevin was popping back and having wide open shots," Lue said. "So, if they're going to play like that we'll take that all day."

The idea of ICE is for the on-ball defender to force the ball handler away from the screen while the defender guarding the screener attempts to help contain the dribbler. The goal is to keep the driver from getting near the basket or force him to finish over length.

One problem: Defenses become susceptible to 3-pointers.

"I told him at halftime that the 34 seemed very seamless," Irving said. "We saw that they were trying to ICE us on the sides and they were leaving Kev kind of wide open on that 3-point line so he got an incredible rhythm after his first shot and we kept feeding."

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index....xploit_bl.html

[tDotted]

Hope the new scheme is better. After I posted that (which was partly guesswork), I googled Lebron ICE defence and came up with this as one of the 1st hits. It was from the game Love hit 8 3's in one quarter.



http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index....xploit_bl.html

I watched his outburst and it was pretty much just bad execution of ICE (or maybe that's what Stotts is telling them). They had two big men sagging into the paint when the pick is clearly meant to get them a 3 lol. If nobody is rotating, the D is going to look bad no matter what you run.

[Rudy Bargnani]

Hope the new scheme is better. After I posted that (which was partly guesswork), I googled Lebron ICE defence and came up with this as one of the 1st hits. It was from the game Love hit 8 3's in one quarter.



http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index....xploit_bl.html

Thanks for sharing. Interesting read. If any writers from the main page read this, that would be a great article to expand on with a raptors spin as it seems like they are ice-ing less this year. At least by the eye test.

I generally see ice-ing the pick and roll portrayed in a very positive light. Interesting to read this perspective.
I wondered if Greer leaving had something to do with JV's challenges. But perhaps they are ice-ing less Based on Clevelands 3 point shooting.

It seems like JV is better suited to ice-Ing the PNR....but with the emphasis on the 3 ball is that approach less likely to lead to success against Cleveland and Golden State? Thus making JV less likely to stay on the floor?

[OakTree]

Thanks for sharing. Interesting read. If any writers from the main page read this, that would be a great article to expand on with a raptors spin as it seems like they are ice-ing less this year. At least by the eye test.

I generally see ice-ing the pick and roll portrayed in a very positive light. Interesting to read this perspective.
I wondered if Greer leaving had something to do with JV's challenges. But perhaps they are ice-ing less Based on Clevelands 3 point shooting.

It seems like JV is better suited to ice-Ing the PNR....but with the emphasis on the 3 ball is that approach less likely to lead to success against Cleveland and Golden State? Thus making JV less likely to stay on the floor?

They're being fluid with their PNR coverage. They'll ice, switch or hedge depending on the match up.

JV is definitely better at ice-ing the PNR, BeBe hedges better, but can also ice, and with their small front court they'll switch more.

I think the NBA's gotten to the point where as a team you need to be able to do all three to make it deep into the playoffs.

[jimmie]

They're being fluid with their PNR coverage. They'll ice, switch or hedge depending on the match up.

JV is definitely better at ice-ing the PNR, BeBe hedges better, but can also ice, and with their small front court they'll switch more.

I think the NBA's gotten to the point where as a team you need to be able to do all three to make it deep into the playoffs.

The last line is exactly it. Icing and hedging are not new defensive strategies, nor are they complicated to the point that opposing coaches need to gameplan for them. They're not even strategies, really, they're just tactics.

The REALLY good defensive teams use those tactics as they see fit to match the opponent's offensive strengths, since the players are good enough/system entrenched enough that it's easy to switch tactics on the fly depending on the opposing 5 players on the floor. It's what they talk about when they say guys are 'playing on a string' on D.

[Rudy Bargnani]

Interesting.
So as it relates to JV---if the team we are chasing (Cleveland) has strength's that encourage hedging vs iceing it makes it much harder to keep JV on the floor. Is that fair to say?

[tDotted]

If the hedging is to stop the Cavs from shooting 3's then I'm not sure if it's working.

Last regular season against the Cavs (3 games): gave up 28.6 attempts

This season against the Cavs (3 games): gave up 32.3 attempts

[slaw]

If the hedging is to stop the Cavs from shooting 3's then I'm not sure if it's working.

Last regular season against the Cavs (3 games): gave up 28.6 attempts

This season against the Cavs (3 games): gave up 32.3 attempts

It's a different Lebrons than the Blatt team from last year. They're shooting ~4 threes more per game this season, so those numbers line up with what Cleveland is generally doing to everyone. It has nothing to do with Raps screen and roll coverage.

[slaw]

Interesting.
So as it relates to JV---if the team we are chasing (Cleveland) has strength's that encourage hedging vs iceing it makes it much harder to keep JV on the floor. Is that fair to say?

You can still effective ICE the Cavs when they go to the wing. You just have to rotate. The issue is that the Cavs keep a lot of their action near the top of the key so that teams either have to drop off and leave Irving and crew to rain threes or hedge/blitz/trap/switch the high screen and roll. Again, you can't ICE high screen and roll. It isn't a decision not to. You can't. It's impossible. You can drop off the big into the paint but it's not the same and the effectiveness of that tactic isn't the same when the defense doesn't have the sideline and the baseline hemming in the ballhandler.

[tDotted]

It's a different Lebrons than the Blatt team from last year. They're shooting ~4 threes more per game this season, so those numbers line up with what Cleveland is generally doing to everyone. It has nothing to do with Raps screen and roll coverage.

Doesn't add up. Lue's Cavs were at 31 threes a game last season. They're only shooting them 2.7 times more from last season.

So

Last regular season against the Cavs (3 games): gave up 28.6 attempts [Lue's Cavs 31 3PA]

This season against the Cavs (3 games): gave up 32.3 attempts [33.7 3PA for the season]

That's 2.4 less times from the season average last season.

And 1.4 less times from season average this season.

So, again, the notion that you can't ICE because = more threes for the Cavs isn't true. You just need good execution.

[tDotted]

You can still effective ICE the Cavs when they go to the wing. You just have to rotate. The issue is that the Cavs keep a lot of their action near the top of the key so that teams either have to drop off and leave Irving and crew to rain threes or hedge/blitz/trap/switch the high screen and roll. Again, you can't ICE high screen and roll. It isn't a decision not to. You can't. It's impossible. You can drop off the big into the paint but it's not the same and the effectiveness of that tactic isn't the same when the defense doesn't have the sideline and the baseline hemming in the ballhandler.

And yeah.. it is very possible. Team needs to rotate after the ICE..

[3inthekeon]

You can still effective ICE the Cavs when they go to the wing. You just have to rotate.

I'm not disagreeing with what you said, but I see 2 issues.

1. If it's a skip pass to the opposite corner, there's probably be enough time to rotate to the shooter.. But Lebron can throw bullets and if he has any sort of passing lane, there is a wide open corner 3.

2. The scramble defense from a couple of years ago also involved just having to rotate. If you don't have smart defenders rotations can break down.

[DanH]

Not sure if anyone else recalls how the series against CLE started last spring, but the team bailed on their protect-the-paint conservative scheme and was really aggressive on the perimeter, hedging a lot and leaving the rim less protected. It was a complete disaster and CLE tore us to shreds, to the tune of a 140 ORTG in the first half before it was a complete blowout and scoring 29+ in each of the first three Q's, with only an entire 4th Q of garbage time bringing the full game rating down to 120 (a disastrous rating in and of itself). The Raptors reverted to their more usual conservative scheme for the rest of the series, and although CLE's shooters got hot enough in several games to kill the Raps, they also got cold in a couple and allowed the Raps to steal two games.

Playing a more aggressive perimeter defence is not some cure against the Cavs - it is imperative you protect the rim against a team like that, as a sliver of daylight means a dunk for LeBron or a layup for Kyrie. Playing with not enough paint protection means automatically getting destroyed. Sacrificing the perimeter to keep them away from the rim means you at least have a shot. Have to find a way to limit the open looks from distance as well, but it's critical you don't leave the paint as a weak spot to do so.

[LJ2]

Dan's summary of last years series against the Cavs pretty much sums up the whole concept of small ball to me. Anyone still feel we should be innovative and try to punish small ball teams in the post using JV? Just curious if opinions have changed or if some still feel bully ball can work against an elite small ball team.