Everything Valanciunas

[KHD]

This is the play in question.

http://stats.nba.com/events/#!/?flag...0Shot&sct=plot

There are a couple things to note here:
1. It was a tie game, no need to go for a three.
2. Even a gentle lob would have led to an easy 2 for JV, or at worst two free throws.

The team has become so conditioned to kicking it out, and ignoring a wide open JV, that we are giving away really easy opportunities for buckets.

When people like me complain about JV being open, it's because of shit like this. The guy is open time and time again, and we don't pass him the ball. If he was some kind of inept finisher, or he couldn't shoot free throws, it would make sense. But the guy can finish! He is shooting 85.4% from the line! That's better than Kyle!

So what happened next?

Shitty transition defence off the rebound. Watch from about 8:09 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s0hVKwtjTI

Carroll loses McBuckets, then fouls him on the three point shot. McBuckets sinks all three free throws. 114-111.
DeRozan decides to take a pull-up 19 footer. Misses.
Then Butler/McBuckets run the 1-3 pick and roll on Lowry/Carroll and get an easy dunk. 116-111.

Just like that we're in a hole in a tight game. And JV gets pulled for Ross, while Bebe stays in the game.

yeah honestly it's to the point where you almost start believing we're actively avoiding passing to him in the 2nd half of games.

[golden]

This is the play in question.

http://stats.nba.com/events/#!/?flag...0Shot&sct=plot

There are a couple things to note here:
1. It was a tie game, no need to go for a three.
2. Even a gentle lob would have led to an easy 2 for JV, or at worst two free throws.

The team has become so conditioned to kicking it out, and ignoring a wide open JV, that we are giving away really easy opportunities for buckets.

This is such a good point. It's not just ignoring JV. You'll notice on so many plays, the 'role players' instinctively start looking around to pass the ball to Lowry or DD. In doing so, they completely ignore the natural or easy basketball play, such as pushing the ball or passing it to somebody else who is wide open.

[Lupe]

Whiteside's available. Ship JV out for him.

[Scraptor]

Whiteside's available. Ship JV out for him.

Was it really necessary to post this in three different threads?

Less is more, dude.

[Lupe]

Again confirmed my suspicions but the reason we were good defensively in 2013-14 was because of the 2Pat-Amir frontcourt. 98.1 dRTG for that pairing compared to 106.5 for 2Pat-JV and 103.8 for Amir-JV. Also killed those two lineups in netRTG with compared +13.6 to +4.9 and +1.8 respectively. Was the best frontcourt pairing on both ends of the floor.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

This is the play in question.

http://stats.nba.com/events/#!/?flag...0Shot&sct=plot

There are a couple things to note here:
1. It was a tie game, no need to go for a three.
2. Even a gentle lob would have led to an easy 2 for JV, or at worst two free throws.

The team has become so conditioned to kicking it out, and ignoring a wide open JV, that we are giving away really easy opportunities for buckets.

When people like me complain about JV being open, it's because of shit like this. The guy is open time and time again, and we don't pass him the ball. If he was some kind of inept finisher, or he couldn't shoot free throws, it would make sense. But the guy can finish! He is shooting 85.4% from the line! That's better than Kyle!

So what happened next?

Shitty transition defence off the rebound. Watch from about 8:09 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s0hVKwtjTI

Carroll loses McBuckets, then fouls him on the three point shot. McBuckets sinks all three free throws. 114-111.
DeRozan decides to take a pull-up 19 footer. Misses.
Then Butler/McBuckets run the 1-3 pick and roll on Lowry/Carroll and get an easy dunk. 116-111.

Just like that we're in a hole in a tight game. And JV gets pulled for Ross, while Bebe stays in the game.

The most frustrating part about that is how the segment (starting after DeRozan's free throw ties the game) you highlighted starts with a solid defense play from JV. DeRozan does his best impression of a pylon and Bebe does his matador impression, giving Wade a wide open drive to the basket, but JV steps up to deny him. Of course, Wade passes out for the 3 pt shot.

It's ironic that first JV was wide open at the offensive end, then makes a solid defensive play, yet he's apparently the problem on this team.

[S.R.]

Again confirmed my suspicions but the reason we were good defensively in 2013-14 was because of the 2Pat-Amir frontcourt. 98.1 dRTG for that pairing compared to 106.5 for 2Pat-JV and 103.8 for Amir-JV. Also killed those two lineups in netRTG with compared +13.6 to +4.9 and +1.8 respectively. Was the best frontcourt pairing on both ends of the floor.

This is such a weird argument. AJ and PP played 215 minutes together that year - TOTAL. AJ and JV played 1418 minutes together. PP and JV played 378 minutes together. How can you even presume to compare dRTG in those pairings without that context?

PP was also a definite bench player that year and presumably got most of those minutes vs. benches. He played similar minutes with AJ and PP as Tyler Hansbrough did with AJ and JV. Those were largely situational or vs. benches pairings. JV & Amir played far more minutes together and would have been playing almost exclusively vs. starters as a pairing.

I think what else is going on in general is the frontcourt depth is not only shallow this year, it's young. The guys plugging in around JV and PP in 2013-14 - Amir, Psycho, Hayes - these guys were more experienced players, hustle players, had some vet savvy. The Raptors have the potential to replace their contribution, but Bebe, Siakam, and Poeltl are waaaay less experienced and have a lot of development ahead of them. It's hard for rookies to really help you win, even when their box scores look fine. The frontcourt is just in a different phase right now than it was in 2013-14. Sully really would have helped balance things out this year but he's been out.

JV is a good player, I still don't get the hammering away on the weakest part of his game, every guy on this roster has weaknesses and they aren't getting nearly as much attention but some are equally important. Yes, the D would be better if JV were replaced by Noel, Whiteside, Gobert, or whoever. But how much better would the defence be if our starting SG were Paul George or Jimmy Butler instead of DeMar DeRozan? What if we had Kawhi or Tony Allen at SF? Yes it's important to anchor the defence well at the C position, it's also important to have great defence at the point of attack.

[Lupe]

If I could trade DeMar for Butler I'd do it in 2 seconds so I'm not sure what your argument is there. However jv by nature of his position has a bigger responsibility defensively than DeMar and that's not really debateable. DeMar is usually guarding spot up or low impact offensive guys who don't even initiate the pick and roll or offense. JV is going to be involved in basically every play defensively significantly.

If you want to talk point of attack defense that discussion starts with Kyle and Carroll. Kyle is guarding the opposing point guard so that's fairly self explanatory. Carroll will guard the more dynamic, playmaking wing player. That is the point of attack not Klay Thompson or kyle korver.

Now let's look at the reality. Kyle is going nowhere since he is the engine of our team. Neither is DeMar as a franchise player. Carroll is a huge problem but we can't move him because he sucks and is overpaid and aging. So what avenue does that leave us to improve defensively? Right, center. This is not a crusade against jv it is about how to improve the team defensively to a level that we need.

[KHD]

This is such a weird argument. AJ and PP played 215 minutes together that year - TOTAL. AJ and JV played 1418 minutes together. PP and JV played 378 minutes together. How can you even presume to compare dRTG in those pairings without that context?

PP was also a definite bench player that year and presumably got most of those minutes vs. benches. He played similar minutes with AJ and PP as Tyler Hansbrough did with AJ and JV. Those were largely situational or vs. benches pairings. JV & Amir played far more minutes together and would have been playing almost exclusively vs. starters as a pairing.

I think what else is going on in general is the frontcourt depth is not only shallow this year, it's young. The guys plugging in around JV and PP in 2013-14 - Amir, Psycho, Hayes - these guys were more experienced players, hustle players, had some vet savvy. The Raptors have the potential to replace their contribution, but Bebe, Siakam, and Poeltl are waaaay less experienced and have a lot of development ahead of them. It's hard for rookies to really help you win, even when their box scores look fine. The frontcourt is just in a different phase right now than it was in 2013-14. Sully really would have helped balance things out this year but he's been out.

JV is a good player, I still don't get the hammering away on the weakest part of his game, every guy on this roster has weaknesses and they aren't getting nearly as much attention but some are equally important. Yes, the D would be better if JV were replaced by Noel, Whiteside, Gobert, or whoever. But how much better would the defence be if our starting SG were Paul George or Jimmy Butler instead of DeMar DeRozan? What if we had Kawhi or Tony Allen at SF? Yes it's important to anchor the defence well at the C position, it's also important to have great defence at the point of attack.

well that pretty much kills that point lmao

[Apollo]

Casey seems to hold JV to a higher expectation than anyone else on the team. I wouldn't blame JV if he bolted next contract negotiations.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

If I could trade DeMar for Butler I'd do it in 2 seconds so I'm not sure what your argument is there. However jv by nature of his position has a bigger responsibility defensively than DeMar and that's not really debateable. DeMar is usually guarding spot up or low impact offensive guys who don't even initiate the pick and roll or offense. JV is going to be involved in basically every play defensively significantly.

If you want to talk point of attack defense that discussion starts with Kyle and Carroll. Kyle is guarding the opposing point guard so that's fairly self explanatory. Carroll will guard the more dynamic, playmaking wing player. That is the point of attack not Klay Thompson or kyle korver.

Now let's look at the reality. Kyle is going nowhere since he is the engine of our team. Neither is DeMar as a franchise player. Carroll is a huge problem but we can't move him because he sucks and is overpaid and aging. So what avenue does that leave us to improve defensively? Right, center. This is not a crusade against jv it is about how to improve the team defensively to a level that we need.

I think this is why some posters continue to feel the Casey/DeRozan/Lowry core will never be better than a 2nd tier contender, that doesn't really have a legitimate shot at the NBA championship. Unfortunately, as Lowry ages into his thirties and the team becomes even more cap-strapped, this concern will only increase. That's the problem when your two key players are such liabilities on the defensive end of the court.

When you surround those two players with role players to makeup for the deficiencies of the star players (ie: Biyombo), all it takes is a single defender to shut down one of the stars, and suddenly the one benefit they bring to the team is completely negated, and the team is left struggling for success on either end of the court. We've witnessed this in the playoffs the past several seasons. Surround Lowry & DeRozan will all the defenders possible, but suddenly there's no real third offensive option to bail them out; not that Casey ever coaches in a manner that would attempt to establish a third option(s) during the regular season.

[golden]

I think this is why some posters continue to feel the Casey/DeRozan/Lowry core will never be better than a 2nd tier contender, that doesn't really have a legitimate shot at the NBA championship. Unfortunately, as Lowry ages into his thirties and the team becomes even more cap-strapped, this concern will only increase. That's the problem when your two key players are such liabilities on the defensive end of the court.

When you surround those two players with role players to makeup for the deficiencies of the star players (ie: Biyombo), all it takes is a single defender to shut down one of the stars, and suddenly the one benefit they bring to the team is completely negated, and the team is left struggling for success on either end of the court. We've witnessed this in the playoffs the past several seasons. Surround Lowry & DeRozan will all the defenders possible, but suddenly there's no real third offensive option to bail them out; not that Casey ever coaches in a manner that would attempt to establish a third option(s) during the regular season.

Basically the Durant/Westbrook/Brooks style of play...... without Durant and Westbrook.

[KHD]

I think this is why some posters continue to feel the Casey/DeRozan/Lowry core will never be better than a 2nd tier contender, that doesn't really have a legitimate shot at the NBA championship. Unfortunately, as Lowry ages into his thirties and the team becomes even more cap-strapped, this concern will only increase. That's the problem when your two key players are such liabilities on the defensive end of the court.

When you surround those two players with role players to makeup for the deficiencies of the star players (ie: Biyombo), all it takes is a single defender to shut down one of the stars, and suddenly the one benefit they bring to the team is completely negated, and the team is left struggling for success on either end of the court. We've witnessed this in the playoffs the past several seasons. Surround Lowry & DeRozan will all the defenders possible, but suddenly there's no real third offensive option to bail them out; not that Casey ever coaches in a manner that would attempt to establish a third option(s) during the regular season.

yep

[Lupe]

So blow up the team then. Like we either try our best to tailor the team to our core guys or we blow it up not much choice

[CalgaryRapsFan]

So blow up the team then. Like we either try our best to tailor the team to our core guys or we blow it up not much choice

You're missing the third option, which is to try and make it no so much about just two players. Develop other offensive options, cash in assets to acquire additional options, reduce the usage of the two players so they aren't asked to do so much offensively and also aren't on the court as defensive liabilities as often, etc...

The main problem, at least from my perspective, is Casey and his over-reliance on DeRozan and Lowry. There's good talent on this roster that could be more utilized and/or better utilized. There are young players who could develop into more reliable offensive options. DeRozan and Lowry do what they're asked to do, to the best of their abilities. For the past few years I've been far more frustrated with the team's strategy, than just those two players (or any other players). That's why I refer to the core as being Casey/DeRozan/Lowry.