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  • koncept wrote: View Post
    Good discussion. Over the cap is not where im confused. It's still a bit confusing about the rookie draft part. If I DRAFT 10 rookie picks in the offseason draft but come September 1 only keep 1 rookie, is my cap hit the rookie deal i choose + 9 (for the nine other rookies drafted automatically given 1 year?) or would a draft and discard count as 0 years. I would assume drafting would not accrue a year automatically, the NBA rookies get drafted but not signed essentially right?
    I kinda missed this post before. I think in the past we have had to count up-coming draft picks against the cap for the purpose of trades, so essentially each draft pick owned carries a cap hit of 1 leading up to the draft. Once that player is drafted, they can be assigned a different contract before the deadline but would be expected to have the minimum default of 1 regardless. If you were to draft multiple players and not keep them all, any that you didn't keep would be 1 year cap hits in my opinion.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • Axel wrote: View Post

      I kinda missed this post before. I think in the past we have had to count up-coming draft picks against the cap for the purpose of trades, so essentially each draft pick owned carries a cap hit of 1 leading up to the draft. Once that player is drafted, they can be assigned a different contract before the deadline but would be expected to have the minimum default of 1 regardless. If you were to draft multiple players and not keep them all, any that you didn't keep would be 1 year cap hits in my opinion.
      I don't recall this, but I may just not remember. I'm not sure what the purpose of such a rule would be.

      I do think we generally have applied an empty roster spot cap hold of 1 year for each empty spot, so teams can't use their cap entirely without filling a roster and then enter the season with un-resignables filling out the minimum roster size. But I don't recall that applying directly to the draft picks. The same way we don't explicitly assign a hold to any re-sign slots until teams announce re-sign values. It's just the slot that's kept open.

      No reason why an unsigned drafted player would count against the cap, I wouldn't think. Just means more talent going into the auction draft anyway.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • DanH wrote: View Post

        I don't recall this, but I may just not remember. I'm not sure what the purpose of such a rule would be.

        I do think we generally have applied an empty roster spot cap hold of 1 year for each empty spot, so teams can't use their cap entirely without filling a roster and then enter the season with un-resignables filling out the minimum roster size. But I don't recall that applying directly to the draft picks. The same way we don't explicitly assign a hold to any re-sign slots until teams announce re-sign values. It's just the slot that's kept open.

        No reason why an unsigned drafted player would count against the cap, I wouldn't think. Just means more talent going into the auction draft anyway.
        I think it's part due to the default - if you draft a player, same as if you claim a player off waivers, the default cap hit is 1 year. If you drop a waiver claimed player on the next waiver period, before the cap declaration period has expired, we would still call that player a 1 year deal since it is the default. I would think that similarly, if you draft the player (not applying to unused picks but to selected players) then the default contract is 1 year and you have until the signing declaration period deadline to declare something other than the default.

        I think the reasoning to have a rule like that in place is to prevent a player for using a bevy of draft selected rookies to circumvent the cap while making deals in the off-season. Those players are on your roster, available as assets for deals, so they should exist on your cap sheet in a nominal way.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • Axel wrote: View Post

          I think it's part due to the default - if you draft a player, same as if you claim a player off waivers, the default cap hit is 1 year. If you drop a waiver claimed player on the next waiver period, before the cap declaration period has expired, we would still call that player a 1 year deal since it is the default. I would think that similarly, if you draft the player (not applying to unused picks but to selected players) then the default contract is 1 year and you have until the signing declaration period deadline to declare something other than the default.

          I think the reasoning to have a rule like that in place is to prevent a player for using a bevy of draft selected rookies to circumvent the cap while making deals in the off-season. Those players are on your roster, available as assets for deals, so they should exist on your cap sheet in a nominal way.
          Until re-signs are announced, is there really even an advantage to any player trying such a strategy? Every team has loads of cap space in the summer. And it's pretty well established that drafted players' rights in the NBA are traded without cap consideration, why would that be different for us? In the meantime, simply with the empty roster spot cap holds in place there is a nominal placeholder preventing teams from making trades above the cap (regardless of how incredibly difficult it would even be to pull off with every team seeing their cap room increase by 15 in the summer).

          Like, if I said in August that I was re-signing LeBron James to a 5 year deal. Then in September, decided not to re-sign him at all, nor re-sign anyone in his place. How is that different from saying I'm signing this draft pick to a 5 year deal right after the draft, then on re-sign day say actually I'm not signing that draft pick at all? In the first case I don't have to carry a dead cap charge for LeBron, why would I for the rookie?
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • With Zion in the mix I think drizz has the firepower to come back and seize 7th or 8th seed. Who's heart is he breaking?

            He only has two teams left on tap above .500.

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            • Is this wrong or right:

              A drafted player is drafted with 0 cap years; just the same as a FA player acquired during the off-season auction is acquired with 0 cap years.

              Is this right or wrong:

              We don’t have to assign cap years to a FA player acquired via the off-season FA auction; just as we don’t have to assign years to rookie player acquired via the rookie draft.
              RR OG

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              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                With Zion in the mix I think drizz has the firepower to come back and seize 7th or 8th seed. Who's heart is he breaking?

                He only has two teams left on tap above .500.
                drizz ain’t gunning to break any hearts or take any souls this season. He’s merely tip-toeing the line to get another lottery ticket for a chance to win another lottery pick. Good luck with that, brother!

                Last edited by James Ballswin (Realizar); Thu Jan 23, 2020, 03:22 PM.
                RR OG

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                • James Ballswin (Realizar) wrote: View Post
                  Is this wrong or right:

                  A drafted player is drafted with 0 cap years; just the same as a FA player acquired during the off-season auction is acquired with 0 cap years.

                  Is this right or wrong:

                  We don’t have to assign cap years to a FA player acquired via the off-season FA auction; just as we don’t have to assign years to rookie player acquired via the rookie draft.
                  But that's not true. We only allow teams who missed the auction and were stuck with Yahoo autodraft to do that
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post

                    Like, if I said in August that I was re-signing LeBron James to a 5 year deal. Then in September, decided not to re-sign him at all, nor re-sign anyone in his place. How is that different from saying I'm signing this draft pick to a 5 year deal right after the draft, then on re-sign day say actually I'm not signing that draft pick at all? In the first case I don't have to carry a dead cap charge for LeBron, why would I for the rookie?
                    I don't see how a re-sign and a draftee are really the comparison. With a re-sign, if you do nothing, the default is zero and you lose the player (see Klay Thompson). With a draftee, it would be more like a waiver claim, where you actively select a player and if you do nothing, the default would be 1.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                    • Axel wrote: View Post

                      I don't see how a re-sign and a draftee are really the comparison. With a re-sign, if you do nothing, the default is zero and you lose the player (see Klay Thompson). With a draftee, it would be more like a waiver claim, where you actively select a player and if you do nothing, the default would be 1.
                      But why? I've seen no logic behind that distinction. If anything the opposite makes much more sense. In the NBA, if a team drafts a player and never signs them, they don't keep a cap hold on them (especially as our specific scenario would include the team losing the player's draft rights, which is equivalent to the team not tendering a minimum required tender to their draft pick). Exactly the same as when deciding whether to re-sign a player - if the team walks away from the free agent and renounces his rights, they similarly don't have a cap hit.

                      But if a team signs a player to a contract (ie second waivers in our league) or makes a successful waiver claim, they are then stuck with that contract's cap hit.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • James Ballswin (Realizar) wrote: View Post
                        Is this wrong or right:

                        A drafted player is drafted with 0 cap years; just the same as a FA player acquired during the off-season auction is acquired with 0 cap years.

                        Is this right or wrong:

                        We don’t have to assign cap years to a FA player acquired via the off-season FA auction; just as we don’t have to assign years to rookie player acquired via the rookie draft.
                        That's not true. At minimum that player is one year or am I mistaken here?

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                        • Apollo wrote: View Post
                          That's not true. At minimum that player is one year or am I mistaken here?
                          We've definitely had cases where auction FAs have been allowed to be dropped with no cap hit, but as Axel points out perhaps that is only for people who were stuck with autodraft.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • If we need a vote, I'm in favour of having a drafted rookie count as 0 years, not 1 if dropped before they are signed. Especially since we have full a month typically between the time we draft and the time we do the signings. That rookie could get seriously hurt or something in between (like when they decide to snort cocaine at a party and die of an overdose).

                            Auction is different since the signings are pretty close to the auction date.. like a day or two away. But I understand when a guy is stuck with the auto draft and gets crappy players so should get an exception.

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                            • The issue of having "place holder years" inserted to the cap was irregardless of Rookie/FA status - the place holders are against the empty roster spots, not the eventual players. It's purely so that people that have, for example, 13 players on their offseason roster and are at 38 year cap, aren't acquiring/drafting someone with 2 years, and not having enough space in their cap to fill their roster come Auction time.

                              That said, you can't trade someone with 0 years on their contract. So terms must be agreed prior to any deal, and therefore you must have the space to accomodate whatever terms you are agreeing to prior to a trade. But if you draft someone and then want to drop them prior to the September 1st deadline, that's on you for wasting the pick; no reason for a cap hit.

                              This is my understanding at least. Happy to discuss.
                              Last edited by Joey; Thu Jan 23, 2020, 05:21 PM.

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                              • James Ballswin (Realizar) wrote: View Post

                                drizz ain’t gunning to break any hearts or take any souls this season. He’s merely tip-toeing the line to get another lottery ticket for a chance to win another lottery pick. Good luck with that, brother!
                                Well he's in trouble because Zion is the man.

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