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  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    Find me an example of a beginner with no training or guidance besting someone with training and guidance. Yoda is built up for four movies as this legendary force user before you ever see him fight in episode 2.
    anakin in the pod race, and almost the entire 2nd half of episode one

    luke the farmer who also happens to be the greatest fighter pilot in the galaxy after vader in episode 6


    the entire movie went out of its way to show how good rey is at everything. why not complain she speaks droid and wookie? where did she learn wookie? she bested two hired thugs in hand to hand combat, scavenges through destroyers for water. she wasn't some random little girl. finn was the one who needed help in everything throughout the movie

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    • You're talking about force users versus non force users now. I wasn't asking you about that. We're talking Darth Vader's grandson who's been trained by Luke and a Sith Lord falling to a young girl with no training. It doesn't make sense and it takes away from the story. They should be building Kylo up like Anakin as this unstoppable force on the rise. Instead they portray him as a pretender. I wonder if they have another villain up their sleeves and he's only here now to throw us off for a big surprise later in the trilogy. This would make sense then but now it just seems like bad writing to me. Especially seeing as they lifted the Episode 4 story and reused it here, you'd think they had some extra time to get some of these things right.

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      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        You're talking about force users versus non force users now. I wasn't asking you about that. We're talking Darth Vader's grandson who's been trained by Luke and a Sith Lord falling to a young girl with no training. It doesn't make sense and it takes away from the story. They should be building Kylo up like Anakin as this unstoppable force on the rise. Instead they portray him as a pretender. I wonder if they have another villain up their sleeves and he's only here now to throw us off for a big surprise later in the trilogy. This would make sense then but now it just seems like bad writing to me. Especially seeing as they lifted the Episode 4 story and reused it here, you'd think they had some extra time to get some of these things right.

        he is a pretender. he isn't anakin. he is an emo teenager who thinks he is special.

        they re-used episodes 1 and 4 for this.

        so you're saying that a small child 10 years old dominating and winning a military space battle is more believable than a girl beating kylo ren?

        i find your lack of faith disturbing. i really don't see why you are finding the concept of her being more powerful in the force than kylo ren unbelievable? she clearly let the force take control of her at the end of the movie when she began to dominate. she was about to lose before she "trusted the force"


        why not take issue with the fact there is no way a suns' energy can be stored in a planet? at least that is real

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        • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
          he is a pretender. he isn't anakin. he is an emo teenager who thinks he is special.

          they re-used episodes 1 and 4 for this.

          so you're saying that a small child 10 years old dominating and winning a military space battle is more believable than a girl beating kylo ren?

          i find your lack of faith disturbing. i really don't see why you are finding the concept of her being more powerful in the force than kylo ren unbelievable? she clearly let the force take control of her at the end of the movie when she began to dominate. she was about to lose before she "trusted the force"


          why not take issue with the fact there is no way a suns' energy can be stored in a planet? at least that is real
          Girls can't fight using lightsabers because they have boobs

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          • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
            so you're saying that a small child 10 years old dominating and winning a military space battle is more believable than a girl beating kylo ren?
            Based on the foundation the lore has establish, yes. They've establish the "force" as essentially a sixth sense and a new dynamic to physics; the spirit realm influencing the physical realm. Kylo has been training for sometime on mastering the force and Rey has had no training and only just realized she has the ability.


            Miekenstien wrote: View Post
            i find your lack of faith disturbing. i really don't see why you are finding the concept of her being more powerful in the force than kylo ren unbelievable? she clearly let the force take control of her at the end of the movie when she began to dominate. she was about to lose before she "trusted the force"
            He trusted the force as well: The darkside. Only he's been trained in it so he should be stronger. Even if she's a Skywalker that point should be negated because so is he.

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            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              Based on the foundation the lore has establish, yes. They've establish the "force" as essentially a sixth sense and a new dynamic to physics; the spirit realm influencing the physical realm. Kylo has been training for sometime on mastering the force and Rey has had no training and only just realized she has the ability.




              He trusted the force as well: The darkside. Only he's been trained in it so he should be stronger. Even if she's a Skywalker that point should be negated because so is he.
              You seem really dug in on this.

              Have you considered that Kylo is not as strong as you assume? They openly showed him struggling with the light side during the movie, to the point where he'd vocalize his self doubts. And they showed him being very emotional as he killed his father. So is it maybe possible that he was actually in a weakened state at that point, and unable to fight with full command of the dark side? They are definitely showing him as having a lot of internal conflict. That can only weaken someone using the dark side.

              And he never finished his training. Not with Luke or with the Supreme leader. So how strong is he? You seem to be treating him like a master level jedi, but without completing his training, he's essentially probably a lot "rawer" in his use of the force than you give him credit for, and not at all used to confronting someone with the same power. Luke vanished, we don't know if he faced any other potential jedi, and he's seemingly never confronted Snoke, so if you add the surprise of Rey suddenly having power matching/overmatching his own, that could fluster him even more.

              There's been some talk that if you consider things like this, it's not outlandish. Using the force is very dependent on your level of control, and in the case of the dark side, embracing your emotions to act on them. If he was emotionally all kinds of discombobulated, why wouldn't he struggle to fight with his full strength? And conversely, Rey had a "moment of zen" where she seemed to realize she had to let the force guide her actions and overcome her fears/doubts and suddenly fought with great ability/strength.

              I have no problem with how that fight played out. A distraught Kylo struggled to first best a trained soldier (carved him up pretty good though), and then a clearly superpowerful potential jedi. Jedi aren't supermen, and if their command of the force is compromised, so is their fighting ability.

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              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                Based on the foundation the lore has establish, yes. They've establish the "force" as essentially a sixth sense and a new dynamic to physics; the spirit realm influencing the physical realm. Kylo has been training for sometime on mastering the force and Rey has had no training and only just realized she has the ability.




                He trusted the force as well: The darkside. Only he's been trained in it so he should be stronger. Even if she's a Skywalker that point should be negated because so is he.
                It's a movie. Nobody wants to see a guy in a mask using Magic to kill a really hot British girl

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                • raptors999 wrote: View Post
                  It's a movie. Nobody wants to see a guy in a mask using Magic to kill a really hot British girl
                  Yeah, so don't square them off against each other in the opener? That is if the goal is to build up a real villain from the get go. All the best stories out there have bad ass villians. Almost every other movie had the padawan not go into battle against a trained sith until after sometime of establishing the character. In episode one it was Obiwan who was denied the battle. In episode two it was Anikan. In episode four it was Luke. In episode seven Rey apparently is so bad ass she needs no training and only a day with the force to dominate a trained sith. Hey, maybe they can wrap this up in one more movie and save me some money? #Reyday

                  white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  And he never finished his training. Not with Luke or with the Supreme leader. So how strong is he? You seem to be treating him like a master level jedi, but without completing his training, he's essentially probably a lot "rawer" in his use of the force than you give him credit for, and not at all used to confronting someone with the same power. Luke vanished, we don't know if he faced any other potential jedi, and he's seemingly never confronted Snoke, so if you add the surprise of Rey suddenly having power matching/overmatching his own, that could fluster him even more.

                  There's been some talk that if you consider things like this, it's not outlandish. Using the force is very dependent on your level of control, and in the case of the dark side, embracing your emotions to act on them. If he was emotionally all kinds of discombobulated, why wouldn't he struggle to fight with his full strength? And conversely, Rey had a "moment of zen" where she seemed to realize she had to let the force guide her actions and overcome her fears/doubts and suddenly fought with great ability/strength.
                  This is an interesting take on it but I'm coming at this from story telling and plot development. Unless in the next movie Kylo is restored or eliminated then this will be in fact some weak story telling. They built him up to sacrifice it later for what? Rey had only just learned of the forced, it was a wasted investment in the plot line to end it that way in my view. Just as it would have been more dramatic for Kylo to only remove his mask once(showing vulnerability) and that being on the platform with his father.

                  My best guess is Kylo gets finished in the next movie or takes a significant step forward and strongly wins round two. If he dies then they bring forward Snoke as the nearly unstoppable villain which ultimately leads to a satisfying 'W' for the Light Side in the conclusion. There are fan theories out there on who Snoke is. It's interesting.

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                  • Apollo wrote: View Post
                    Yeah, so don't square them off against each other in the opener? That is if the goal is to build up a real villain from the get go. All the best stories out there have bad ass villians. Almost every other movie had the padawan not go into battle against a trained sith until after sometime of establishing the character. In episode one it was Obiwan who was denied the battle. In episode two it was Anikan. In episode four it was Luke. In episode seven Rey apparently is so bad ass she needs no training and only a day with the force to dominate a trained sith. Hey, maybe they can wrap this up in one more movie and save me some money? #Reyday
                    Think physical confrontations is just lazy story telling. Not a history major but don't think any political organization or movement has ever been defeated by a duel even with the help of wizards

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                    • Yeah, it is, especially when there is very little history or build up established between the two in question.

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                      • Apollo wrote: View Post
                        Yeah, so don't square them off against each other in the opener? That is if the goal is to build up a real villain from the get go. All the best stories out there have bad ass villians. Almost every other movie had the padawan not go into battle against a trained sith until after sometime of establishing the character. In episode one it was Obiwan who was denied the battle. In episode two it was Anikan. In episode four it was Luke. In episode seven Rey apparently is so bad ass she needs no training and only a day with the force to dominate a trained sith. Hey, maybe they can wrap this up in one more movie and save me some money? #Reyday



                        This is an interesting take on it but I'm coming at this from story telling and plot development. Unless in the next movie Kylo is restored or eliminated then this will be in fact some weak story telling. They built him up to sacrifice it later for what? Rey had only just learned of the forced, it was a wasted investment in the plot line to end it that way in my view. Just as it would have been more dramatic for Kylo to only remove his mask once(showing vulnerability) and that being on the platform with his father.

                        My best guess is Kylo gets finished in the next movie or takes a significant step forward and strongly wins round two. If he dies then they bring forward Snoke as the nearly unstoppable villain which ultimately leads to a satisfying 'W' for the Light Side in the conclusion. There are fan theories out there on who Snoke is. It's interesting.
                        I don't know. I think I completely disagree on "weak storytelling" (while keeping in mind these are space action movies with really weak internal logic/lore). You seem to want everything to have aligned exactly with your expectations. That would be weak storytelling. That would mean predictability and less complexity in the stories/characters. As it is there's still a great deal of mystery and uncertainty as to where they can take the story and characters. That's pretty strong storytelling for a space action movie.

                        Don't know how the story gets "better" if Kylo is obviously without peer and without any internal conflict. The story would end in this move with the First Order winning and there being no real way to lead into another movie. All the good guys would be dead except Luke hiding somewhere on a random planet, and you'd have to start the story from scratch again in the 2nd film. That would be weak ass storytelling.

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                        • Apollo wrote: View Post
                          Find me an example of a beginner with no training or guidance besting someone with training and guidance. Yoda is built up for four movies as this legendary force user before you ever see him fight in episode 2.
                          Luke Skywalker. That's his entire storyline from the first three movies. He has zero training other than a couple days/weeks with Yoda and Obi Wan. His Jedi training is to face Vader. The point was never that Luke could dance around like a kung-fu master and move shit with his mind - it was never about that. Luke beats (and then redeems) Vader through the sheer force of his will and his decision to spurn the dark side.

                          There's also a lot more going on than a sword fight. Ren doesn't want to kill Rey, he wants to co-opt her, so he's attempting to do that in the fight. Meanwhile, he is so internally conflicted between the pull of the Light and Dark sides that he hurts himself during the fight to try and regain focus. His story is that he is weaker and more vulnerable than he should be because he is conflicted and emotionally unstable while the force of her will is stronger because she isn't fighting the same demons he is.

                          Personally, I love that we're back to the Luke model as opposed to 5 year olds playing with swords cause they have magic beans in their blood and ninjas dancing around with swords like ballerinas engaging in endless, meaningless, pointless battles.

                          And don't even get me started on how they ruined Yoda in the prequels. Ugh.

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                          • Here is someone else possibly articulating this better than me:
                            3. Kylo Ren, a powerful Force-user, fights a light saber duel with an ex-janitor who has never held a light saber and yet (a) never uses the Force on his opponent, though doing so would have ended the duel immediately, and (b) barely wins the fight, suggesting that he is simultaneously one of the least strategic wielders of the Force the Dark Side has ever seen and, despite his training, absolutely terrible with a light saber. None of this stops Kylo Ren from designing and building his own, completely impractical cross-barred lightsaber.

                            4. Rey becomes nearly as effective a Force-user in a few hours as Luke Skywalker did in a few years.
                            29. Who trained Rey to fight with a staff as effectively as she does, given that (a) she is an orphan with no friends or family, and (b) she has never been in a battle, but is, rather, merely a scrap-metal scavenger?
                            37. If basically everyone in the Galaxy knows the Force is not a myth -- for instance, every single Stormtrooper in the First Order, who has seen Kylo Ren use it or heard tell of him using it; every single person in the Resistance, who knows the Resistance is looking for Luke Skywalker; every single person in the Republic, which was first established in part by the heroism of the Jedis -- how is the existence of the Force a total shock to Rey?
                            http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8850324

                            The article made me chuckle a bit. I liked the film overall as well but damn were there some issues.

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                            • This new documentary about systemic rape issues on American college campuses (not sure about the Canadian stats) should be seen by more young men and women.



                              Here's the bit about Erica Kinsmen, the victim of accused rapist and #1 NFL pick Jameis Winston.



                              PS - it's on Netflix.
                              Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Fri Jan 8th, 2016, 02:18 PM.

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                              • SkywalkerAC wrote: View Post
                                This new documentary about systemic rape issues on American college campuses (not sure about the Canadian stats) should be seen by more young men and women.



                                Here's the bit about Erica Kinsmen, the victim of accused rapist and #1 NFL pick Jameis Winston.



                                PS - it's on Netflix.
                                Isit any good?

                                Has anyone seen the Netflix doc...Making of a murderer?

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