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  • Apollo wrote: View Post
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0304-7

    The first quote uses the word 'exhaustion' which means total depletion, totally used up, zero. What other virus attacks the primary body defense? HIV. I Googled terms "Covid 19" & "T cells" and found this from two weeks ago:




    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...ing-protective

    We're dealing with a disease that knocks out the body's ability to identify foreign invaders and neutralize them. To me, that means if you get the virus and survive this first wave then your defenses are down for all other types of infections, just like people who develop AIDS. In other words you may be a dead man walking if you catch this or am I reading this wrong? Its truly terrifying to think about and yet I am not hearing this in the mainstream. All I hear are debates about when to reopen. We're not dealing with the flu or common cold here but a lot of press paints it as a strong flu or cold. It's nothing like that. It's like comparing an apple to a banana... An important detail if you're highly allergic to bananas.

    A virus that acts almost like airborne HIV and is highly contagious; there were stories coming out of China early on that you might even be able to catch it through your eyes and last week I read that pink eye is now a symptom of COVID19... Because of this the stock market is irrelevant, investments won't be anywhere near the common man's top priorities if its true about the T cells. Unless a vaccine is found ASAP the world we knew a few months ago is dead and its not returning. I do not know what the new world looks like, but from what I'm reading the only option for now is hiding from the virus indefinitely. I know the government says food security isn't at risk and I'm not at all saying that's a lie, but I'll be planting my own garden in June for peace of mind and expanding next season and thereafter until I see a real weapon against this virus. Be safe everyone.
    from what i understand this is why it is killing us. it doesn't stay like the hiv, where a future cold kills you, it does it all in one tsunami of body overload. our defenses overload on the virus too much, and that makes the pneumonia fatal because the fluids in the lungs aren't depleted fast enough by our bodies, so we drown.

    through the eyes is just face touching, you could probably get this through your asshole if you have a sick person eating it.

    i think if the bold was actually true that trump wouldn't be able to keep it secret. he is too "from the cuff" to not drop realism like this.

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    • Miekenstien wrote: View Post

      from what i understand this is why it is killing us. it doesn't stay like the hiv, where a future cold kills you, it does it all in one tsunami of body overload. our defenses overload on the virus too much, and that makes the pneumonia fatal because the fluids in the lungs aren't depleted fast enough by our bodies, so we drown.
      Ok, but lets say you survive the intial bout of symptoms and don't go to the hospital and all that. It takes out the T cells and so then deaths caused by contact with this virus might occur next fall when cold and flu season kicks off again or the second big wave of COVID comes through. That's my point, the fall might be devastating. T cells only regenerate in small quantities and the older you are the less it happens. People focus on the death rate right now when calling for decisions to be made but the stats are incorrect because the data is incomplete and there is no way to accurately estimate.

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      • And I hope I am complete wrong and misunderstanding this but as is, I would not be shocked if the next big shortage is on vegetable seeds once this concept is more widely known by the general public.

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        • Apollo wrote: View Post
          Ok, but lets say you survive the intial bout of symptoms and don't go to the hospital and all that. It takes out the T cells and so then deaths caused by contact with this virus might occur next fall when cold and flu season kicks off again or the second big wave of COVID comes through. That's my point, the fall might be devastating. T cells only regenerate in small quantities and the older you are the less it happens. People focus on the death rate right now when calling for decisions to be made but the stats are incorrect because the data is incomplete and there is no way to accurately estimate.
          i think you are extrapolating too much.

          for the bold, exhausted doesn't mean "never coming back". we are exhausted after a 19 mile run, and we refuel. from the beginning this has been at olds, because they are so susceptible. the treatment is the same, old and infirm stay in and isolated. really if you don't have full blown aids, your cells are coming back. be healthy, eat fiber, drop processed foods, and drink a ton of water.

          if you don't have a serious heart, or lung condition, or are overweight, or have diabetes(i think they say diabetes to not say because you're fat), you are 99.something percent going to be ok. i assume now the kids that are dying are going to be found to be vapers with lung damage, there are always exceptions to the rules, but most things in nature follow a straight line.

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          • here is some good news the wuflu is bringing. maybe the complete breakup of the european union. can't stress enough how much joy i get watching socialists try and tell people they are refusing to help that they still have to do everything the socialists say. thank god the eu didn't raise an army yet.



            when i go down the rabbit hole, i get to the destruction of the eu might have been the goal from the start. if the bug breaks up the eu completely, then china can negotiate on a one country to one country basis, and expand its one belt one road project, and gain complete dominance of europe.

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            • the very rare maybe miek is criticizing trump post. full immigration ban executive order to save american jobs. i like the idea of this, but timing is weird to me. this is the type of move that is precursor to war. if other countries do this, and then begin to expel immigrants, shit could be about to get really real.

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              • Miekenstien wrote: View Post

                i think you are extrapolating too much.

                for the bold, exhausted doesn't mean "never coming back". we are exhausted after a 19 mile run, and we refuel. from the beginning this has been at olds, because they are so susceptible. the treatment is the same, old and infirm stay in and isolated. really if you don't have full blown aids, your cells are coming back. be healthy, eat fiber, drop processed foods, and drink a ton of water.

                if you don't have a serious heart, or lung condition, or are overweight, or have diabetes(i think they say diabetes to not say because you're fat), you are 99.something percent going to be ok. i assume now the kids that are dying are going to be found to be vapers with lung damage, there are always exceptions to the rules, but most things in nature follow a straight line.

                About T cells:
                Studies of T-cell regeneration using animal models have consistently shown the importance of the thymus for T-cell regeneration. In humans, recent studies have shown that declines in thymic T-cell regenerative capacity begins relatively early in life, resulting in a limited capacity for T-cell regeneration by young adulthood.
                https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9476668/

                The destruction of T cells is what makes HIV so dangerous. Whether you're 9 or 90, losing your T cells is bad news. I don't think the body "refuels" T cells the way you're describing.

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                • Apollo wrote: View Post

                  Whether you're 9 or 90, losing your T cells is bad news. I don't think the body "refuels" T cells the way you're describing.
                  probably, i have no idea what i am talking about. i have seen chemo survivors, and i have an uncle who got the hiv in the 90s, and their bodies all mostly healed. hiv uncle has meds, and chemo has dr checkups on a regular basis. in my brain it can't be worse than radiation poisoning.

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                  • I'm no expert but I think the basic explanation is HIV attacks the immune system and if left untreated the host develops AIDS and dies shortly thereafter.

                    COVID19 attacks the immune system and currently we have no treatment for it.

                    Incidentally two common diseases that HIV opens the body up to are pneumonia and tuberculosis. Medical researchers are actually testing whether a particular TB vaccine has some ability to protect people from COVID19 and one common problem people in hospital with COVID19 suffer from is pneumonia...

                    As for the point you made with cancer and HIV, both have treatment options. Also for perspective, less than 1 in 100 people in America have HIV but up to 95 in 100 may get COVID19 if solutions aren't found.
                    Last edited by Apollo; Tue Apr 21st, 2020, 05:25 PM.

                    Comment


                    • A panel of medical experts convened by the U.S. National Institutes of Health recommended against the use of a drug combination touted by President Donald Trump for Covid-19 patients.

                      The NIH panel, made up of 50 doctors, pharmacy experts and government researchers and officials, specifically recommended against the use of the anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine in combination with the antibiotic azithromycin.

                      The malaria pill can cause heart issues, and the NIH panel warned of the potential for harm from the combination.

                      Trump has repeatedly backed the use of the malaria pill or the combination of drugs on Twitter and at numerous briefings of the Coronavirus Task Force, though some medical experts in his administration have cautioned about the lack of evidence. In a press briefing on April 5th, he said: “What do you have to lose? Take it.”

                      “Although reports have appeared in the medical literature and the lay press claiming successful treatment of patients with Covid-19 with a variety of agents, definitive clinical trial data are needed to identify optimal treatments for this disease,” the NIH panel said in its report, giving broad recommendations for the treatment of Covid-19 patients.
                      https://news.bloomberglaw.com/corona...ked-drug-combo

                      On to the next idea.

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                      • https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...300996#sec0002

                        actual french controlled test. not everything works for everybody. if you don't have a heart condition, your own doctor should know that, this is a potentially effective treatment. it has helped people.

                        if your doctor is a quack and you have had triple bypass surgery, or if you are super old and have a naturally bad heart, don't take medicine that says bad for your heart.

                        if you have cirrhosis don't take acetaminophen, it can kill you.

                        beautiful selected quotes too.

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                        • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                          https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...300996#sec0002

                          actual french controlled test. not everything works for everybody. if you don't have a heart condition, your own doctor should know that, this is a potentially effective treatment. it has helped people.

                          if your doctor is a quack and you have had triple bypass surgery, or if you are super old and have a naturally bad heart, don't take medicine that says bad for your heart.

                          if you have cirrhosis don't take acetaminophen, it can kill you.

                          beautiful selected quotes too.
                          Interesting.

                          There are at least 30 variants now due to mutation:
                          BREAKING NEWS: COVID-19 Has Now Mutated to Over 30 Strains, Says China
                          Finding a cure for the current COVID-19 pandemic has been challenging scientists and medical professionals all over the world. However, it now seems that the mission may be more complicated than initially thought as it has been reported through a Chinese study on infected individuals that the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 has now mutated to over 30 strains. This may further delay the development of vaccines.
                          https://www.techtimes.com/articles/2...y-in-china.htm

                          While I don't have the source, I read that different variants vary in aggression and symptoms. It's likely why the symptoms range literally from head to toe. What you have in your community could be different than the version you're seeing in whatever news story you read. Also, it begs to question even more are the numbers misleading? We're counting apples but there are various kinds of apples and the differences are important:

                          Li 's team infected cells with COVID-19 strains carrying different mutations, of which the most aggressive strains were found to generate as much as 270 times as much viral load as the weakest strains. The aggressive strains also killed the human cells the fastest.
                          https://www.jpost.com/health-science...y-finds-625333

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                          • The big three unknowns that make re-opening complex:
                            1.
                            WHO’S CONTAGIOUS?

                            “The really unknown in this, to be completely transparent,” is asymptomatic spread, said Dr. Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus task force coordinator.
                            2.
                            WHO’S IMMUNE?

                            Doctors assume people who had COVID-19 will have some immunity against a repeat infection. But they don’t know how much protection or how long it will last.

                            Another key question: Do people who survive a severe infection have stronger immunity than those who had mild symptoms — or those who had no obvious symptoms at all?
                            3.
                            WHO’S AT-RISK?

                            One early warning has borne out: Older adults are especially susceptible to COVID-19. So are people of any age who have certain health troubles, such as lung disease, heart problems or diabetes.

                            But being young and apparently healthy is no guarantee. Plenty of 20- and 30-somethings, and even some children, get infected and occasionally die.

                            “Some people do extremely well and some people completely crash,” Fauci told The Associated Press in a recent interview. “It’s something more than just age and underlying condition.”
                            Source: https://apnews.com/44654e29f03076bfb721f79e5deb4fe8

                            Arguably everyone is at risk depending on how severe it destroys the immune system. Do people who are asymptomatic or have barely noticeable symptoms losing their T cells as well and on what level? My question can be slotted into #2.

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                            • i think all of this is moot if mortality rate is .01-.02%.

                              i really think if the tcell depletion were permanent/or extremely common we would be told this is the apocalypse.

                              just did some wiki reading on tcells, and i think you might have a misunderstanding on what exhaustion means.
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_cell#Exhaustion

                              what are they?
                              A T cell is a type of lymphocyte, which develops in the thymus gland (hence the name) and plays a central role in the immune response. T cells can be distinguished from other lymphocytes by the presence of a T-cell receptor on the cell surface. These immune cells originate as precursor cells, derived from bone marrow,[1] and develop into several distinct types of T cells once they have migrated to the thymus gland. T cell differentiation continues even after they have left the thymus.

                              how we make them
                              About 98% of thymocytes die during the development processes in the thymus by failing either positive selection or negative selection, whereas the other 2% survive and leave the thymus to become mature immunocompetent T cells. The thymus contributes fewer cells as a person ages. As the thymus shrinks by about 3%[9] a year throughout middle age, a corresponding fall in the thymic production of naïve T cells occurs, leaving peripheral T cell expansion and regeneration to play a greater role in protecting older people.
                              -seems they continue to regenerate.

                              what exhaustion is
                              T cell exhaustion is a state of dysfunctional T cells. It is characterized by progressive loss of function, changes in transcriptional profiles and sustained expression of inhibitory receptors. At first cells lose their ability to produce IL-2 and TNFα followed by the loss of high proliferative capacity and cytotoxic potential, eventually leading to their deletion. Exhausted T cells typically indicate higher levels of CD43, CD69 and inhibitory receptors combined with lower expression of CD62L and CD127. Exhaustion can develop during chronic infections, sepsis and cancer.[49] Exhausted T cells preserve their functional exhaustion even after repeated antigen exposure.[50]


                              here is how quickly cells in the body regenerate.
                              http://book.bionumbers.org/how-quick...ce-themselves/

                              Comment


                              • https://www.healthline.com/health/t-cell-count#results
                                Low T cell count



                                A low T cell count is more common than a high T cell count. Low T cell counts usually indicate problems with your immune system or lymph nodes. Low T cell counts may be due to:
                                • viral infections, such as influenza
                                • aging
                                • immunodeficiency disorders
                                • exposure to radiation
                                • HIV and AIDS
                                • cancers that affect the blood or lymph nodes, such as Waldenstrom’s macroglobulinemia, leukemia, and Hodgkin’s disease
                                • congenital T cell deficiency, in some rare cases

                                Medications may be prescribed to increase your T cell count. No specific foods have been shown to increase the number of WBCs or T cells in the body. However, a healthy diet can help to boost the immune system overall.


                                edit add: i just want to say both the chemo, and the hiv cause this, so we have been dealing with exhausted tcells for decades.
                                Last edited by Miekenstien; Wed Apr 22nd, 2020, 12:00 PM.

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