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  • #91
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Right off NASA's website. It's 16 years old and is off the beaten path(thanks Google):
    http://quest.nasa.gov/saturn/qa/new/...n_the_body.txt

    When I posed the question I said "fast" but I was thinking about G's, acceleration. Anyway, this was educational.
    i had assumed you meant Gs

    https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...steller+travel

    video on theoretical interstellar engines.

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    • #92


      explaining the upcoming interstellar mission

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      • #93
        https://www.yahoo.com/news/nasas-jun...070643984.html

        yay jupiter

        http://gizmodo.com/the-sound-of-a-sp...-fi-1782945981
        Last edited by Miekenstien; Tue Jul 5th, 2016, 04:42 AM.

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        • #94
          1.8 BILLION mile journey! Anyone up for a road trip?

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          • #95
            "A star 40 light years away that hosts three Earth-sized worlds was discovered earlier this year.
            Now, evidence is building that two of these planets could be the perfect place for alien life.
            By looking at the system through the Hubble Space Telescope, astronomers have deduced that the innermost planets are rocky, like our own, and are surrounded by compact atmospheres."


            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...host-life.html

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            • #96
              What it'd look like to enter a Black Hole ....
              http://gfycat.com/UntidySpottedAdouri

              Neat.
              Last edited by Joey; Wed Aug 17th, 2016, 07:18 PM.

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              • #97
                I wish I could live longer to find out EVERYTHING about space. So cool.

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                • #98
                  Joey wrote: View Post
                  What it'd look like to enter a Black Hole ....
                  http://gfycat.com/UntidySpottedAdouri

                  Neat.
                  love how we stay cognizant throughout the trip

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                  • #99
                    Just read through this thread for the first time.

                    Re: the conversation on finding other advanced civilizations, here are my thoughts.

                    Creative thought that leads to technological advancement is, in my mind, tied to the competitive and survivalist instincts that stem from the evolutionary process. As technological advancement increases, so too does the capacity for self-destruction. In the time frame of the universe, the window in which we've been able to communicate wirelessly is about 100 years. With about 4B since the formation of the planet and about 14B since the starting gun went off. In those 100 years, we've also developed nuclear and biological weapons that could wipe out the human race with ease. We've also managed to damage the planet's atmosphere to such an extent that we could be inviting a species-eradicating event of our own seeding soon, leaving aside the possibility that such an event was simply bound to occur at some point anyway (such as the superasteroid that seemingly wiped out the dinos, or even just natural heating or cooling of the atmosphere).

                    So it's a question of a ticking clock - when do we end? You think we last another 1000 years? That means about 10 sets of those 100 years we just got through - years in which WWI happened (and the first really effective use of chemical warfare), then WWII (including the atom bomb), and the development of biological warfare capabilities, probably even more threatening to the human race than the atom bomb - with similar leaps and bounds in technological advancement (and, again, ability to wipe ourselves out with a press of a button).

                    Let's say we develop a window of 1000 years between the invention of the radio (and the rapid progression towards deep space exploration that follows) and extinction. That's 0.000025% of the age of the planet (using the formation of earth as a rough starting point for life developing throughout the universe, even though there are exoplanet systems as old as 13B years). So, one four-millionth or so of the age of the universe as a life-supporting plane of existence. Then you try to figure out how many civilizations would need to exist for 1000 years each at random points in that 4B year window for there to be overlap.

                    By my quick calculations, assuming a window of 4B years and a 1000 year target, I calculated that there would need to be 2000 such civilizations popping up throughout the universe to manage a 50% chance of an overlap occurring. That's not 100%, just a 50-50 shot. 2000 out of the nigh infinite number of stars in the universe seems easy.

                    More realistically, though, if we accept faster than light travel as an impossibility (or at least unachievable before we wipe ourselves out - ie within that in my opinion generous 1000 year window), then we need those 2000 civilizations to exist within the nearest 15 million or so stars (those within about 1000 light years). The most generous studies have about 15% of stars being potentially able to carry life. So then we settle on the question - is the formation of intelligent life (defined as a civilization reaching at least the stage ours has) happening on 1 in 500 solar systems? If it is, we can say there is some reason to believe we may overlap, either in communication or contact, with another developed civilization.

                    That's all, of course, with the assumption that we have 1000 years (and that the average civilization would have 1000 years post-radio-wave discovery)...

                    Even if you assume there are some civilizations that last tens of thousands of years before meeting their end, those tens of thousands of years are an eye-blink in the scale of the universe.

                    Further to that, it does ignore the possibility that there is some point in a civilization's evolution where space exploration or at least contact with other races becomes undesirable. There could be alien races all around us but so advanced that we will never develop the technology needed to discover them.

                    Ultimately, the only assumptions that can be made that make ever interacting with another species likely are:
                    a) That faster-than-light travel and communication are possible and usable.
                    b) That life is a shockingly common thing, existing in a much larger percentage of solar systems than is assumed above, contrary to all (admittedly limited) evidence we have, and...
                    c) That we (and those civilizations like us) will last forever (or near enough).

                    Each of those assumptions in my mind are grounded more in fantasy than reality, though of course none of them are impossible.

                    Which, frankly, is very comforting to me. Add to the above the probability that if large distance travel was possible, in all likelihood some civilization would beat us to that point, and would have developed weapons that would allow them to wipe us out with no issues. And considering the way we as a species react to each other when we sense even the slightest threat, I don't think I'd take my chances if I were an alien race and discovered us on the verge of space travel.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • The Space Thread gets the Dan treatment! I love it!! Haha

                      Will give your breakdown a read tonight. Look forward to it!

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                      • DanH wrote: View Post


                        Further to that, it does ignore the possibility that there is some point in a civilization's evolution where space exploration or at least contact with other races becomes undesirable. There could be alien races all around us but so advanced that we will never develop the technology needed to discover them.

                        Ultimately, the only assumptions that can be made that make ever interacting with another species likely are:
                        a) That faster-than-light travel and communication are possible and usable.
                        b) That life is a shockingly common thing, existing in a much larger percentage of solar systems than is assumed above, contrary to all (admittedly limited) evidence we have, and...
                        c) That we (and those civilizations like us) will last forever (or near enough).

                        Each of those assumptions in my mind are grounded more in fantasy than reality, though of course none of them are impossible.

                        Which, frankly, is very comforting to me. Add to the above the probability that if large distance travel was possible, in all likelihood some civilization would beat us to that point, and would have developed weapons that would allow them to wipe us out with no issues. And considering the way we as a species react to each other when we sense even the slightest threat, I don't think I'd take my chances if I were an alien race and discovered us on the verge of space travel.
                        for the bold, unless those civilizations have discovered that the universe is infinite then everything is a resource game and they would come here and take everything from us. everywhere in the universe it is survival and destruction, any species with advanced technology has that understanding and our 2 billion year life span left on this planet is perfect for their own colonies.

                        faster than light communication is real. quantum entanglement exists and will become a viable space communications link at some point. as far as i am concerned the only obstacle is faster than light travel. there won't be a way to speed something up to faster than light ever, so only a warp drive can create that. if a quasar can't push things to the speed of light than nothing we ever make will have enough energy to do it.

                        now we are getting into anti-matter energies. we theoretically could create a worm hole and keep it open using anti-matter energy but it is near impossible to create and maintain. the chinese are building the next big particle smasher and we currently make our anti matter at cern. so to your point of blowing ourselves up, the atom bomb released like 1% of its energy when it dropped and anti-matter converts almost 100%. what will happen when the chinese can arm a missile with anti-matter.

                        i think the only way our species dies is self destruction. not from global warming, we will survive that but from actually killing ourselves. also evolution will kill homo-sapiens and our descendants will break off into separate species. i had this argument with a vegan friend when i explained to him our brains grew from the addition of complex proteins in our diets and that making his kids be vegans and i assume their kids be vegans eventually his descendants will lose their incisor teeth and transition into full plant eaters and history isn't kind to plant eaters. when the species begins to split, eating those plant eaters is no longer cannibalism. as a race we should be teaching our bodies to be able to get nutrients from every possible source there is.
                        Last edited by Miekenstien; Mon Aug 22nd, 2016, 10:31 PM.

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                        • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                          for the bold, unless those civilizations have discovered that the universe is infinite then everything is a resource game and they would come here and take everything from us. everywhere in the universe it is survival and destruction, any species with advanced technology has that understanding and our 2 billion year life span left on this planet is perfect for their own colonies.

                          faster than light communication is real. quantum entanglement exists and will become a viable space communications link at some point. as far as i am concerned the only obstacle is faster than light travel. there won't be a way to speed something up to faster than light ever, so only a warp drive can create that. if a quasar can't push things to the speed of light than nothing we ever make will have enough energy to do it.

                          now we are getting into anti-matter energies. we theoretically could create a worm hole and keep it open using anti-matter energy but it is near impossible to create and maintain. the chinese are building the next big particle smasher and we currently make our anti matter at cern. so to your point of blowing ourselves up, the atom bomb released like 1% of its energy when it dropped and anti-matter converts almost 100%. what will happen when the chinese can arm a missile with anti-matter.

                          i think the only way our species dies is self destruction. not from global warming, we will survive that but from actually killing ourselves. also evolution will kill homo-sapiens and our descendants will break off into separate species. i had this argument with a vegan friend when i explained to him our brains grew from the addition of complex proteins in our diets and that making his kids be vegans and i assume their kids be vegans eventually his descendants will lose their incisor teeth and transition into full plant eaters and history isn't kind to plant eaters. when the species begins to split, eating those plant eaters is no longer cannibalism. as a race we should be teaching our bodies to be able to get nutrients from every possible source there is.
                          Re: faster than light communication, yes, I know it is real, it's why I added "usable." Big difference between the two, especially lacking faster than light travel.

                          And yeah, that was my overall point. Surely, to develop new technology that may or may not be able to bring us deeper into the universe, we will be trying stuff out, and who knows when we use antimatter wrong or create a black hole on the surface of the Earth and wipe the slate clean. It's a numbers game, and the faster we invent new technologies, the more potential for something going catastrophically wrong, and the less likely it is we (or any technologically developing race) even reach that 1000 year window.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            Re: faster than light communication, yes, I know it is real, it's why I added "usable." Big difference between the two, especially lacking faster than light travel.

                            And yeah, that was my overall point. Surely, to develop new technology that may or may not be able to bring us deeper into the universe, we will be trying stuff out, and who knows when we use antimatter wrong or create a black hole on the surface of the Earth and wipe the slate clean. It's a numbers game, and the faster we invent new technologies, the more potential for something going catastrophically wrong, and the less likely it is we (or any technologically developing race) even reach that 1000 year window.

                            how do you think the numbers you assumed would change if titan has life and mars has fossilized life? we have really only investigated one place thoroughly. personally i am of the belief that if it can exist that it does. if the universe is infinite this then becomes infinite.

                            i don't think we will ever be at a point where we could open a black hole though. that is about mass in space and the numbers are astronomical. rapid, unsafe expansion of technology is my biggest fear. competition with different countries is my biggest concern. the race to be the first with an anti-matter bomb could be it. quantum computers are huge, we have to hope that the united states is the first country to actually "crack" quantum computing because that will be a hugely powerful weapon that the free world needs to learn first. i don't fear artificial intelligence. no one is smart enough to create actual thought and no one is dumb enough if that happened that it wouldn't be built on a program that couldn't be turned off. that is why i didn't believe the terminator movies. humans would figure out the glitches in the t-whatevers and exploit and destroy them.

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                            • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                              how do you think the numbers you assumed would change if titan has life and mars has fossilized life? we have really only investigated one place thoroughly. personally i am of the belief that if it can exist that it does. if the universe is infinite this then becomes infinite.

                              i don't think we will ever be at a point where we could open a black hole though. that is about mass in space and the numbers are astronomical. rapid, unsafe expansion of technology is my biggest fear. competition with different countries is my biggest concern. the race to be the first with an anti-matter bomb could be it. quantum computers are huge, we have to hope that the united states is the first country to actually "crack" quantum computing because that will be a hugely powerful weapon that the free world needs to learn first. i don't fear artificial intelligence. no one is smart enough to create actual thought and no one is dumb enough if that happened that it wouldn't be built on a program that couldn't be turned off. that is why i didn't believe the terminator movies. humans would figure out the glitches in the t-whatevers and exploit and destroy them.
                              Probably not at all. The percentages are not based on being able to support "life." They are based on being able to support such varied and expansive life for a long enough time that an advanced civilization can arise from it. That's a far different bar. And also not only being ABLE to support that, but having the long evolutionary dance of random changes in each species actually lead to an advanced intelligence race climbing out of the quagmire. Look at Earth - for millions of years homo sapiens (and our ancestors) were fairly isolated, and yet were the only strain of DNA to develop towards intelligent life. It's no guarantee that even an expansive life-sustaining system (ie one capable of carrying the diversity Earth does) would yield an intelligent species, ever. If we had rivals on Earth that evolved from fish and from birds that we had to compete with at some point and wipe out to become the dominant intelligent species, sure. But it looks like right now the only path to intelligence on Earth is through the ape evolution path. No way to know how many other potential paths there are, but we can say that out of millions of significant evolutionary paths on Earth we have literally ONE that has actually yielded anything resembling intelligent life.

                              Sure, the black hole thing was just an example. For example, with your worm hole idea - we'd have to try it at some point, yeah? And we won't really know for certain where the other end is opening until we try it, no matter how many simulations we run and calculations we complete. Maybe we open into the centre of another star and the resultant explosion of heat through the wormhole wipes out a chunk of the solar system. Maybe there are gravitational effects we don't predict and Earth is launched straight into the sun.

                              All I'm saying is that even scientifically-oriented (ie exploration, discovery, etc) technological advances can be extremely dangerous. And I agree that far more likely we wipe ourselves out with some sort of advanced weapon warring on each other. In fact, even more likely than that is someone insane getting in power and using the weapons we already have to wipe us out (nuclear weapons, germ warfare). But yeah, it would be quicker with an antimatter bomb.

                              I do think, though, that you are underestimating the human capacity for doing dumb stuff when you say you aren't afraid of AI.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                              • i just can't see any way we actually create sentient machines.

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