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  • Axel
    started a topic Y'all Qaeda

    Y'all Qaeda

    So I've just started following the situation that is going on in Oregon and it is seriously messed up.

    I've read two different versions of the events (one from a "liberal" paper and one from a "conservative" paper), and as far as I can tell, here are the unbiased facts.

    The Hammond family have long owned a cattle ranch on property that has since been semi-surrounded by a wildlife preserve. There have been on-going disputes between the Hammond family and the federal body that overseas the wildlife preserve, with years of disputes ranging from right of way access to fences and water permits. Recently, two members of the Hammond family (one aged 73, the other around 50) were charged and convicted of causing brush fires that led to damage of the wildlife preserve. That caused local peaceful protests over the jailing of the two. Since then, an armed militia, lead by two brothers (the Bundy brothers), has taken to occupy the wildlife preserve HQ in protest of the government's treatment of the Hammond family. The Hammond family has openly distanced themselves from the militia and their actions and have willingly surrendered for incarceration.

    From there, things may be murky depending on which paper you read.

    The liberal paper had details like the fire was started to cover up illegal hunting by the father-son.

    The conservative paper had a deep history of the disputes between the Hammond family and the government regarding the land (decades worth of disputes).

    Social media has taken to calling the militia "Y'all Qaeda" as they are being portrayed as "redneck terrorists."

    I've also seen recent articles related to Oregon's deep history as a "White Utopia" with open legislated racism and gun culture - which of course seems related to what is happening.

    At this point, it seems that 100-150 armed members of this militia are holding the wildlife preserve. The local area has shut down all schools, etc for fear of violence. The police intend to shut off all electricity, telephone and road access to the part HQ in hopes of a peaceful surrender. The militia claims to be intending to stay for the long haul, but pictures that have been seen do not show a very large food supply. The militia has used social media to call all US Patriots to join them and for people to "send snacks." Current weather forecasts show winter weather coming in that would drop the temperature well below freezing.

    The world we live in folks. Puts basketball in perspective

  • Niagara Raptor
    replied
    Joey wrote: View Post
    Today I learned "old fashioned" refers to 15th Century Europe ... Hahah

    But I agree, these guys need to be made an example of, lest you face potential anarchy.
    lol ... i have a Tywin Lannister view of governance

    Leave a comment:


  • Joey
    replied
    Niagara Raptor wrote: View Post
    good ... call me old fashioned but i look at them as traitors and should be beheaded on the block

    they didnt like the way government was running so they resolved to use extreme tactics unders the cloak of liberty

    fake patriots
    Today I learned "old fashioned" refers to 15th Century Europe ... Hahah

    But I agree, these guys need to be made an example of, lest you face potential anarchy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Niagara Raptor
    replied
    good ... call me old fashioned but i look at them as traitors and should be beheaded on the block

    they didnt like the way government was running so they resolved to use extreme tactics unders the cloak of liberty

    fake patriots

    Leave a comment:


  • Bendit
    replied
    Looks like all the kooks are now in custody. Hope when they get their prison terms the system can educate them on acceptable constitutional reform methodologies.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-sta..._from_the.html

    And the godfather of this movement has been apprehended as well (Cliven Bundy daddy to the main instigators in Oregon)

    Leave a comment:


  • Miekenstien
    replied
    Bendit wrote: View Post
    I meant re-education in a generic sense. These are individuals who have another view/interpretation of the law (in effect the constitution) and in some cases fundamentally believe the Federal govt. (more so) is an illegal entity. They have a 1780s mindset on this.

    So, how does anyone relearn that which has been warped-taught them in the first place? Couldn't think of a better term than "re-educate"...re-teach ?...re-assimilate?...re-indoctrinate? no, strike the last one lol.

    Did you get the "creepy" feeling thinking Pol Pot, Mao?....be honest now

    No matter ...the school system needs to be in there but it's probably too late for the older ones unless the prison system has a schooling component haha.
    my wife's cousin works for the ccp in hunan. she is pretty high in provincial government. over the past 4 years she has had many colleagues taken for re-education.

    i think the spirit of the group is right. but i think that they chose a stupid and completely false time to make a stand. they belittled everything they said they believed in to try and bully the feds into releasing prisoners and then tried to go a step further and use this occupation to further their own gains. i am reading now they are playing the victim card.

    if, big if, the american government somehow went insane and started flaunting the constitution and freedoms then these people would be right to do what they do and would most likely be heroes for it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bendit
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Reeducation to me sounds creepy. I agree with Miek, they need to respect the law and at the same time the law needs to come down hard on them.

    Think what you want, just make sure you respect the laws of the land. If you take over a government building by force, to me, that sounds like an act of terrorism or an act of war.
    I meant re-education in a generic sense. These are individuals who have another view/interpretation of the law (in effect the constitution) and in some cases fundamentally believe the Federal govt. (more so) is an illegal entity. They have a 1780s mindset on this.

    So, how does anyone relearn that which has been warped-taught them in the first place? Couldn't think of a better term than "re-educate"...re-teach ?...re-assimilate?...re-indoctrinate? no, strike the last one lol.

    Did you get the "creepy" feeling thinking Pol Pot, Mao?....be honest now

    No matter ...the school system needs to be in there but it's probably too late for the older ones unless the prison system has a schooling component haha.
    Last edited by Bendit; Fri Jan 29th, 2016, 08:12 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apollo
    replied
    Reeducation to me sounds creepy. I agree with Miek, they need to respect the law and at the same time the law needs to come down hard on them.

    Think what you want, just make sure you respect the laws of the land. If you take over a government building by force, to me, that sounds like an act of terrorism or an act of war.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miekenstien
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    These constitutionalists essentially believe the real power belongs at the state level; they appear to be anti federal government, there's a difference. They believe in their right to have arms because it's in the Constitution. They believe in forming militias because it tells them it's their duty in the Constitution. I'm not defending them as they scare the shit out of me too but I'm just explaining these points based on my understanding.

    Christianity is not about violence and Jesus only gets violent once in the text when he gets angry with fat cats doing business in the temple. He never physically hurts them. The Bible also is against civil disobedience. I would argue that these groups tend to be of a conservative mindset and most people who believe in Christianity tend to have a conservative mindset and never should religion be brought into this. There are a lot of Conservatives out there but not many extreme constitutionalists. Crazy people do crazy things and if it weren't Christianity it would be something else. The overall Christian faith is one of being kind, showing forgiveness, loving your neighbours, etc.

    I think the Constitution has turned them radical. They view the feds are violating the constitution and theyre turning it around and taking it to the extreme to prove their point and draw attention to themselves. Similar to radical Islam, just not remotely as violent.
    Bendit wrote: View Post
    Fully understand and in all instances you cite it is a perversion of what is. They, at the very least, need a re-education. For myself. whenever you tote a gun as a tool to solve a disagreement I shut down to your point of view.

    in their view the federal government is taking what they see as "the peoples". that, to me, is the excuse they tell themselves to not have to say "ours". you could take all federal land and divide it by the amount of citizens to see how much is "one persons". that is of course ridiculous.

    i don't think they need to be re-educated. they do need to respect federal law. the way to change things in a democracy is to have your representatives do your bidding. the right to bear arms and protect yourself from tyranny only applies when the government is being tyrannical. two idiots setting a bush fire that goes out of control are arsonists, not freedom fighters.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bendit
    replied
    Fully understand and in all instances you cite it is a perversion of what is. They, at the very least, need a re-education. For myself. whenever you tote a gun as a tool to solve a disagreement I shut down to your point of view.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apollo
    replied
    These constitutionalists essentially believe the real power belongs at the state level; they appear to be anti federal government, there's a difference. They believe in their right to have arms because it's in the Constitution. They believe in forming militias because it tells them it's their duty in the Constitution. I'm not defending them as they scare the shit out of me too but I'm just explaining these points based on my understanding.

    Christianity is not about violence and Jesus only gets violent once in the text when he gets angry with fat cats doing business in the temple. He never physically hurts them. The Bible also is against civil disobedience. I would argue that these groups tend to be of a conservative mindset and most people who believe in Christianity tend to have a conservative mindset and never should religion be brought into this. There are a lot of Conservatives out there but not many extreme constitutionalists. Crazy people do crazy things and if it weren't Christianity it would be something else. The overall Christian faith is one of being kind, showing forgiveness, loving your neighbours, etc.

    I think the Constitution has turned them radical. They view the feds are violating the constitution and theyre turning it around and taking it to the extreme to prove their point and draw attention to themselves. Similar to radical Islam, just not remotely as violent.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bendit
    replied
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Can't view the video where I am, what's is it that scares you?
    In the context of Oregon...the individuals in the Ruby Ridge case had commonalities...militaristic, guns, religion, anti govt. and did not appear at court dates (like the law did not apply) etc.

    These numbers seem to be increasing and of course so is the sophistication of the weaponry. The one positive thing from what I remember of this incident is that the fbi and other agencies learned some lessons and were more patient so far with the Oregon standoff. They were quite bad actually in the RR & Waco incidents.

    Leave a comment:


  • Apollo
    replied
    Can't view the video where I am, what's is it that scares you?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bendit
    replied
    Joey wrote: View Post
    Fiasco is the only suitable word to describe that one ... man oh man.

    They weren't a cult though .. just a family living in the middle of nowhere by themselves because Jesus told them to in order to avoid the apocalypse.....
    If anyone feels like a watch of the docudrama...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrNGkDlbdF4


    What is scary is that there are still plenty around who subscribe to that mindset.

    Leave a comment:


  • Joey
    replied
    Bendit wrote: View Post
    Maybe the Ruby Ridge fiasco?
    Fiasco is the only suitable word to describe that one ... man oh man.

    They weren't a cult though .. just a family living in the middle of nowhere by themselves because Jesus told them to in order to avoid the apocalypse.....
    Last edited by Joey; Thu Jan 28th, 2016, 12:33 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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