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NBA Players Perception of Toronto & Canada

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  • #31
    I'd like to think that the world has changed and that stereotypes can be altered, but I think it will take more than winning games to break stereotypes that have been around for decades. Two issues I can think of are, and I am aware of the irony of me stereotyping Americans:

    1) One of the biggest problems with the stereotypes going against us is that they aren't isolated to just the Toronto RAPTORS but rather there are prejudices against all of Canada, as a country. As long as those barriers exist, no amount of winning will eradicate stereotypes, no matter how ridiculous and non-factual they are.

    2) The second biggest problem is just the way that Americans think. It's a general superiority complex mentality in which they think they are just better. And it's not just a feeling -- they are convinced of it. Mind you this mentality exists everywhere but is strongest in the US. Here you will say Canada is better, but after some debate you'll concede that there are certain things we aren't so great at. Like track and field, for example, and internet speeds. The general population in America is completely closed minded. A great example of this is how domestic automobiles like Chrysler and Ford continue to be more popular than more reliable cars like Honda and Toyota.
    your pal,
    ebrian

    Comment


    • #32
      Craiger wrote: View Post
      How many 50 win teams that have been making noise in the playoffs sign a star? Just looking at the more recent moves:

      James/Bosh - to Miami who had won between 15 and 47 games over the last 3 years, only first round exits

      Melo - to NY. Hadn't even been a .500 team since 2001

      Chris Paul - to the Clippers. Umm record isn't necessary is it?

      Howard - To Houston. Between 34 and 45 wins previous 3 years. One first round exit.

      Even puttings questions of 'perception' or how players would 'feel' about playing in city X or Y completely aside:

      If a team is a 50+ win team with some playoff noise they either 1) have a star already 2) have their pay roll tied up in players already
      Most of those examples go alone the lines of "can I win here". Not necessarily because the teams were already winning, but that these star free agents saw opportunities to win in those places.

      James/Bosh- they already knew they were going to join forces so they knew they could win (side note: Bosh got noticed - and subsequently recruited to Miami- for his talent by two of the leagues best players while playing in TORONTO).

      Melo- he forced a trade to a "big market" to get more exposure (much like Vince, he quit on his team - but unlike the raptors of the time, the nuggets had good management and were patient enough to get some solid pieces back which they used to be a 50 win team)

      Chris Paul - went to LA cause LA is nice and sunny and a media market. The CLIPPERS, however were only considered by players after they DRAFTED Blake Griffin. Chris Paul wanted to go play with Blake Griffin, etc. (this is why "pro-tankers" are saying the draft is the way to go)

      Howard - Houston had a solid core and had just added another star, James Harden, as well as Jeremy Lin, who was highly touted at the time. He saw an opportunity to win based on the current roster, not necessarily on previous records.

      In reality, winning is a bit of a factor, but I think the OPPORTUNITY to win, rather than the winning itself is a major factor.

      Lets say the raptors draft Dante Exum this year. In a couple of years backing Lowry up, he's a solid starter, we trade Lowry for a young PF prospect and durant becomes a free agent. He looks at Toronto and says "these guys have some good pieces here, I'm one of the best players in the NBA, I think together we can win a title. Where do I sign?"





      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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      • #33
        VC was a douche coward. He actually failed purposely to get his way out of TO. I have no problems with someone not liking his workplace and arranging for a "transfer" like what Omer Asik is doing in Houston....he'd rather not play than play less than 100% and let down the players on the team. As with VC his beef is with management.

        Carter actually took the floor, sulked, played badly and let down his teammates. That was his way to let management know to get him out of town quick. They did because the rest of the league got the idea they could get VC for pennies on the dollar...and the Nets did thereby screwing this franchise. I am not absolving the ownership and management here of course....they should have done at the very least what Morey is doing in Houston....waiting it out on his terms to get the best deal possible for the team and by extension the fans.

        Dont know if VC is still the same but what he did (how, mostly) is a severe character flaw in a team sport or activity...on the court or a foxhole. One just does not bail on one's mates/comrades.

        Comment


        • #34
          It's a bit unrelated, but when Exum comes into the NBA, he'll be a starter. He's not going to be backing up Lowry for 2 seasons. That's the reason why all the tank talk got started in the first place. That's how good this draft class is.

          I miss Vince Carter, and I wish that fans would forgive the immature behavior he showed while he was here as a young man.
          your pal,
          ebrian

          Comment


          • #35
            Ujir: Come to Toronto.
            Durant: No
            Ujiri: Please? I'll be your friend!
            Durant: No.
            Ujiri: Oh, you're mean.

            Comment


            • #36
              On the positive side, while MLSE has never attracted a big name NBA free agent before, they've also never done this either:

              http://www.thestar.com/sports/tfc/20...ain_defoe.html

              It’s understood that the combined value of transfer fees and salaries for the two men would reach $100 million. This, in a league with a $3 million salary cap. Two guys — and they’re worth only $20 million less than Forbes’ valuation of the entire franchise.

              Comment


              • #37
                ebrian wrote: View Post
                I'd like to think that the world has changed and that stereotypes can be altered, but I think it will take more than winning games to break stereotypes that have been around for decades. Two issues I can think of are, and I am aware of the irony of me stereotyping Americans:

                1) One of the biggest problems with the stereotypes going against us is that they aren't isolated to just the Toronto RAPTORS but rather there are prejudices against all of Canada, as a country. As long as those barriers exist, no amount of winning will eradicate stereotypes, no matter how ridiculous and non-factual they are.

                2) The second biggest problem is just the way that Americans think. It's a general superiority complex mentality in which they think they are just better. And it's not just a feeling -- they are convinced of it. Mind you this mentality exists everywhere but is strongest in the US. Here you will say Canada is better, but after some debate you'll concede that there are certain things we aren't so great at. Like track and field, for example, and internet speeds. The general population in America is completely closed minded. A great example of this is how domestic automobiles like Chrysler and Ford continue to be more popular than more reliable cars like Honda and Toyota.

                Bold: I would mildly disagree that this is a common malady globally. However, re the Amerks, my answer is framed in
                the clip below....


                Comment


                • #38
                  Meh - there aren't enough big name FA's to go around.

                  It's overly complex.

                  Toronto's actually in a middle of the pack tax situation because the US federal income tax rates are much higher at the top bracket than Canadian. But that doesn't matter - the perception of "Canada = taxes" and the complexity of earning income on a work visa definitely impacts guys. Even though they can easily pay people to take care of all that for them.

                  Winning helps, but it's not the only thing. Dallas had everything lined up when they let Chandler and Kidd go and set their sights on Deron and Dwight - recent championship, current HoF franchise player in his prime, warm weather, no state income tax, big city, rich owner willing to spend - and they got shafted by EVERYBODY. Jose and Monta were plans C and D.

                  Location helps, but it's not the only thing. Dwight shunned the Lakers b/c of his own personality issues. Nobody was flocking to Miami before the current big 3, but all of a sudden Miami's a destination? The Clippers are in LA but never attracted a big name pre-CP b/c of terrible management and a low profile franchise. Sacto's a warm city in Cali, but who do they draw?

                  It basically takes a perfect storm of agent connections, city, winning, teammates, marketing potential, cap space, championship window, etc. for a player to make his decision now. But every player's different and values those variables differently. There's no consistent formula here.

                  Fundamentally the league is too big and should be 3-5 teams smaller. Then every team could have a legitimate one or two all-stars or franchise guys, and this would be much less of an issue. It's really about over-expansion.
                  "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    S.R. wrote: View Post
                    Meh - there aren't enough big name FA's to go around.

                    It's overly complex.

                    Toronto's actually in a middle of the pack tax situation because the US federal income tax rates are much higher at the top bracket than Canadian. But that doesn't matter - the perception of "Canada = taxes" and the complexity of earning income on a work visa definitely impacts guys. Even though they can easily pay people to take care of all that for them.

                    Winning helps, but it's not the only thing. Dallas had everything lined up when they let Chandler and Kidd go and set their sights on Deron and Dwight - recent championship, current HoF franchise player in his prime, warm weather, no state income tax, big city, rich owner willing to spend - and they got shafted by EVERYBODY. Jose and Monta were plans C and D.

                    Location helps, but it's not the only thing. Dwight shunned the Lakers b/c of his own personality issues. Nobody was flocking to Miami before the current big 3, but all of a sudden Miami's a destination? The Clippers are in LA but never attracted a big name pre-CP b/c of terrible management and a low profile franchise. Sacto's a warm city in Cali, but who do they draw?

                    It basically takes a perfect storm of agent connections, city, winning, teammates, marketing potential, cap space, championship window, etc. for a player to make his decision now. But every player's different and values those variables differently. There's no consistent formula here.

                    Fundamentally the league is too big and should be 3-5 teams smaller. Then every team could have a legitimate one or two all-stars or franchise guys, and this would be much less of an issue. It's really about over-expansion.
                    I agree with most of what you're saying but...about the bold:

                    I think Dwight shunned the Lakers because of Kobe's personality issues. And Shaq went to Miami when only Wade was there, and yes, it was a trade but that is where Shaq wanted to go, so if he had been a FA, that's probably where he would have went anyways.

                    That's is all, but I do agree with what you are saying, especially about contraction. Too many teams and not enough talent!!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                      Bosh is still griping about having to play in Canada, eh? And here I was slowly re-gaining respect for the guy.
                      That's because Bosh was more interested "branding" than being a legitimate elite talent.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                        Pfft Ummmmm they signed Jose!!

                        Lol But seriously, Monte was a great pickup for them actually ... though as a "Star", its debatable.

                        I think they've also positioned themselves to be players for Melo and the likes.
                        They certainly have .They have positioned themselves for a big FA signing every summer since "The Decision" and come away empty handed each time. No idea what's going on there, but the Championship Rule certainly doesn't apply to them.
                        Welp, that sucked.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Katman wrote: View Post
                          That's because Bosh was more interested "branding" than being a legitimate elite talent.
                          What is he hoping to sell with the Bosh name as a second/third fiddler in South Beach? The only item I have seen him advertise nationally is "Milk". Did he sell more milk? Toothpaste maybe? Cars, computers? Someone has been selling pro athletes this branding concept and many too full of themselves have lapped it up. The reality is only a very tiny minority of the elite and recognizable can claim they truly can be considered a "brand" and can move the needle. Even Kanye West tries mightily but plays second to his wife the very "valuable" Kim Kardashian....and a pro athlete she is not...as a matter of fact I dont really know what she is. So much for branding. Bosh would have had better luck if he grew a large booty and wore very high heels.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                            how can you forgive a quitter? the one thing he has to do is play to the best of his abilities while representing us and he didn't. all this "at least carter says nice things about us" is shit. at least bosh didn't quit on us. jesus, sticks and stones guys. wa wa wa. guy is a diva, who cares at least he was a hard working diva. same as davis. of the three only one guy was not a professional during his entire tenure wearing the dino. davis and bosh are just stupid people, why hate on the mentally challenged while praising someone taking advantage of you?


                            again i hate all 3 and won't ever not but this forgive carter for not saying bad things is silly.
                            Thats both unstable and lame.

                            It was a shitty situation, the franchise was terrible. so he gave up, he also grew up, and last i checked, that was in 2004, as in A FUCKING DECADE AGO.

                            get over it. The man never did anything to you personally, and by most accounts he is a very nice guy. He wasn't wired to be the Superstar people wanted him to be. Its that simple.

                            "I will never forgive"
                            "I hate"



                            These are ridiculous and childish sentiments. Its just sports, and he's a real person.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Bendit wrote: View Post
                              VC was a douche coward. He actually failed purposely to get his way out of TO. I have no problems with someone not liking his workplace and arranging for a "transfer" like what Omer Asik is doing in Houston....he'd rather not play than play less than 100% and let down the players on the team. As with VC his beef is with management.

                              Carter actually took the floor, sulked, played badly and let down his teammates. That was his way to let management know to get him out of town quick. They did because the rest of the league got the idea they could get VC for pennies on the dollar...and the Nets did thereby screwing this franchise. I am not absolving the ownership and management here of course....they should have done at the very least what Morey is doing in Houston....waiting it out on his terms to get the best deal possible for the team and by extension the fans.

                              Dont know if VC is still the same but what he did (how, mostly) is a severe character flaw in a team sport or activity...on the court or a foxhole. One just does not bail on one's mates/comrades.
                              Honestly, were you part of the process?

                              Do you know how it all played out, and why there was so much tension?

                              Carter didnt "lose on purpose". he got hurt, and when he could he sulked and let the stress, lingering injuries and over bad mindset affect his performance. Would we all have like dhim to have been a stronger, mentally tough guy, CLEARLY. But the guy was a young, spoiled kid who made a few mistake. There is no way in hell its ok to "hate" a guy for something like that.


                              I don't get it, people need to get some perspective.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Craig wrote: View Post
                                Thats both unstable and lame.

                                It was a shitty situation, the franchise was terrible. so he gave up, he also grew up, and last i checked, that was in 2004, as in A FUCKING DECADE AGO.

                                get over it. The man never did anything to you personally, and by most accounts he is a very nice guy. He wasn't wired to be the Superstar people wanted him to be. Its that simple.

                                "I will never forgive"
                                "I hate"



                                These are ridiculous and childish sentiments. Its just sports, and he's a real person.
                                Carter was young. I also made stupid choices in my 20's. I actually enjoy watching him in Dallas now, and am admittedly surprised he's embraced his role there. He's one of the best 6th men in the league, imho, even though he's not going to put up the stats to win 6th man of the year.

                                He does everything well now and he's committed to the team. If he had been in this headspace when he was younger, he would have been an even better basketball player.

                                He does still make "I've been shot!" facial expressions after the occasional foul.
                                "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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