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  • #31
    Sure we can, we just need KD.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    • #32
      imanshumpert wrote: View Post
      I'm not even saying that derozan has to be the best player.

      I just don't understand the mantra on here that you can't win a title with derozan starting at shooting guard
      My thing has always been, if you go through the list of NBA champs + legit title contenders, it's rare that a player of Derozan's mould (non-superstar [as in Jordan/Kobe level], high usage, high scoring, average(ish)-defending, highly paid wing) is involved. That type of player hasn't traditionally been present in the architecture of the best teams. Rip Hamilton is the only example that I can come up with, and has been stated ad nauseam, those Detroit teams were very atypical, and maybe non-repeatable.

      The best argument against this line of thinking, I believe, is that NBA history (involving something resembling the current salary-cap landscape) is very short, so the existing sample size is too small to be drawing universal conclusions from it.
      Last edited by JimiCliff; Sat May 31, 2014, 02:45 PM.
      "Stop eating your sushi."
      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
      - Jack Armstrong

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      • #33
        JimiCliff wrote: View Post
        My thing has always been, if you go through the list of NBA champs + legit title contenders, it's rare that a player of Derozan's mould (non-superstar [as in Jordan/Kobe level], high usage, high scoring, average(ish)-defending, highly paid wing) is involved. That type of player hasn't traditionally been present in the architecture of the best teams. Rip Hamilton is the only example that I can come up with, and has been stated ad nauseam, those Detroit teams were very atypical, and maybe non-repeatable.

        The best argument against this line of thinking, I believe, is that NBA history (involving something resembling the current salary-cap landscape) is very short, so the existing sample size is too small to be drawing universal conclusions from it.
        I agree about the sample size issue.

        I also think a major problem about the championship or bust mantra is that it's kind of unrealistic. All you can do is give your team a reasonable shot at making the Finals. So many things can go wrong. A series can be decided by a couple of bounces or an injury or team chemistry, etc.

        All you can do is build a team that has a reasonable shot at beating the best team in the conference, and hope for the best.
        "Bruno?
        Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
        He's terrible."

        -Superjudge, 7/23

        Hope you're wrong.

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        • #34
          I think the reason you can't win with DD as your starting 2 guard is so popular here is because, I don't think you can win with him as your best or close to best player, because you NEED a top 10-15 player to win. And it's unrealistic to think we can get a top 10-15 player with him on the roster because we're not gonna get one in the draft with DD, and with his contract, fielding a team that's competitive enough to get a star while having the cap space for one is difficult.

          And for the no player of DD's mold, if the heat stay together, in a couple years it could be Wade (sadly). What about Ginobli? Jason Terry (10ish million) in Dallas? Had Ray Allen fallen enough from his prime in Boston to count?
          @Boymusic66

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          • #35
            TSF wrote: View Post
            I think the reason you can't win with DD as your starting 2 guard is so popular here is because, I don't think you can win with him as your best or close to best player, because you NEED a top 10-15 player to win. And it's unrealistic to think we can get a top 10-15 player with him on the roster because we're not gonna get one in the draft with DD, and with his contract, fielding a team that's competitive enough to get a star while having the cap space for one is difficult.

            And for the no player of DD's mold, if the heat stay together, in a couple years it could be Wade (sadly). What about Ginobli? Jason Terry (10ish million) in Dallas? Had Ray Allen fallen enough from his prime in Boston to count?
            The three players you mentioned (I'm omitting Wade because that's just conjecture) all had two essential and defining qualities that Demar lacks: elite 3pt shooting, and incredible clutch performance. If he can develop those elements of his game, then sure, I'm on board.
            "Stop eating your sushi."
            "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
            "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
            - Jack Armstrong

            Comment


            • #36
              JimiCliff wrote: View Post
              The three players you mentioned (I'm omitting Wade because that's just conjecture) all had two essential and defining qualities that Demar lacks: elite 3pt shooting, and incredible clutch performance. If he can develop those elements of his game, then sure, I'm on board.
              DD has had some real clutch performances and isn't a guy who tends to get afraid, so at least the incredible clutch element can be in play. BTW since when has Manu been an elite 3-pt shooter? He's .370 for his career. DD could become a Manu Type- Manu is a career 15-4-4 guy in the playoffs with 44% from the field and 36% from 3, but in his prime he was something like 19-4-4 with the same % in 33 minutes a game, with a 26 USG%. DD these playoffs was 21-3-3 with 38% and 33% in 40 minutes with a 28 USG%. DD is only making 2-3 mil more then Manu was in his prime, but adjusted for NBA inflation? Gives DD something to aim for.
              @Boymusic66

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              • #37
                JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                The three players you mentioned (I'm omitting Wade because that's just conjecture) all had two essential and defining qualities that Demar lacks: elite 3pt shooting, and incredible clutch performance. If he can develop those elements of his game, then sure, I'm on board.
                Smh.

                These players are only considered "clutch" because they've won titles. LeBron was labelled as a choker just 3 years ago.

                If Jason Terry, Manu and Ray Allen weren't 2nd, 3rd and 4th bananas on championship teams; nobody would be calling them clutch.

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                • #38
                  imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                  Smh.

                  These players are only considered "clutch" because they've won titles. LeBron was labelled as a choker just 3 years ago.

                  If Jason Terry, Manu and Ray Allen weren't 2nd, 3rd and 4th bananas on championship teams; nobody would be calling them clutch.
                  Going outside Basketball for a second- Yzerman was called a choker for awhile too. The Joe Thornton of his day, if you will.
                  @Boymusic66

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                  • #39
                    imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                    I'm not even saying that derozan has to be the best player.

                    I just don't understand the mantra on here that you can't win a title with derozan starting at shooting guard
                    Kind of like with the OP, I think you're taking the comments of one or two people and applying it to everyone.

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                    • #40
                      Of course we can win with DeRozan as our starting SG. Don't forget people, he's only 24, LeBron wasn't even championship ready until he was like 27
                      And of course DeMar can't be our 1/2 option.
                      Say if we get KD we'll have him being the 1st option, with Lowry , JV , DD contributing a lot as well as our role players and I'm pretty sure that would be a championship contender.

                      Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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                      • #41
                        JordanMariam14 wrote: View Post
                        Of course we can win with DeRozan as our starting SG. Don't forget people, he's only 24, LeBron wasn't even championship ready until he was like 27
                        And of course DeMar can't be our 1/2 option.
                        Say if we get KD we'll have him being the 1st option, with Lowry , JV , DD contributing a lot as well as our role players and I'm pretty sure that would be a championship contender.

                        Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
                        Two things.
                        1- Lebron at 24 averaged 28-7-7 on 49% with a 31 PER. Lebron as a ROOKIE averaged 20-5-5 on 42%. DD in his fifth season averaged 22-4-4 on 43%. Cmon man, Lebron's problem was all mental, as he had the ability to dominate anybody and everybody since day 1, he just didn't use it. DD has never been that.

                        2- How are you fitting DD's 9.5 million, KL's 12 million (estimate), Durant's 21 million (yes, he's getting the max), JV's extension, and good role players? Not to mention that KL-DD-KD-Roleplayer-JV isn't a championship team.
                        @Boymusic66

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                        • #42
                          I don't know why everyone thinks DeRozan has to go to accommodate a potential Durant signing.

                          Tell me if this is impossible.

                          - The Raptors trade up in this draft and get a nice PG prospect (LaVine, Ennis, Payton, etc)
                          - That prospect emerges in his 2nd season and shows signs of being a legitimate starter in the league
                          - Durant indicates that he wants to sign with Toronto in 2016.
                          - Raptors negotiate a sign and trade with OKC, send Lowry to a 3rd team and picks to Thunder

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                          • #43
                            TSF wrote: View Post
                            Two things.
                            1- Lebron at 24 averaged 28-7-7 on 49% with a 31 PER. Lebron as a ROOKIE averaged 20-5-5 on 42%. DD in his fifth season averaged 22-4-4 on 43%. Cmon man, Lebron's problem was all mental, as he had the ability to dominate anybody and everybody since day 1, he just didn't use it. DD has never been that.

                            2- How are you fitting DD's 9.5 million, KL's 12 million (estimate), Durant's 21 million (yes, he's getting the max), JV's extension, and good role players? Not to mention that KL-DD-KD-Roleplayer-JV isn't a championship team.
                            1. I wasn't talking skill wise, I meant mentally. DD has talent to be a starting SG on a championship team. But he's not mentally ready at 24, like LeBron. I feel like people and the media might get under his skin and he'll lose his confidence. Obviously, DD isn't anywhere near LeBron's caliber, but I'm trying to say he doesn't necessarily have to be.

                            2. My bad, I'm not too educated on the CBA salary restrictions or w.e (I'm only 15) but I'm pretty sure, in two years (2016 free agency) with DD, TR, JV, and the rest of our players developed along with KD we'll be a contender, or am I just out of my mind?

                            Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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                            • #44
                              imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                              I don't know why everyone thinks DeRozan has to go to accommodate a potential Durant signing.

                              Tell me if this is impossible.

                              - The Raptors trade up in this draft and get a nice PG prospect (LaVine, Ennis, Payton, etc)
                              - That prospect emerges in his 2nd season and shows signs of being a legitimate starter in the league
                              - Durant indicates that he wants to sign with Toronto in 2016.
                              - Raptors negotiate a sign and trade with OKC, send Lowry to a 3rd team and picks to Thunder
                              That seems to be very feasible in my mind.

                              Let me ask you this: what if, during the S&T negotiations, OKC becomes firm in their demand for Derozan. Would you be ok with losing Derozan and bringing in Durant?

                              I definitely think that a lineup of

                              Ennis/other young PG/Derozan/ Slim Reaper 35/ Amir or Patterson/ Jonas

                              could be championship worthy. With Durant, this team is elite level. If, per say Durant goes down with injury for a few games, this team could still very well hold their own given that we would still have one legitimate all star scoring threat.

                              We could also target Greg Monroe in Free Agency, maybe even get him on a S&T with Detriot in exchange for Amir, 2Patt, or Handsbro along with a pick or perhaps another player.

                              Therefore, we would have a lineup of Ennis/Demar/Durant/Monroe/JV

                              With backup PG (Vasquez? De Yolo??)/Ross/Fields/Patterson or Amir/ Drafted Center and perhaps Carter and a 2nd round pick as reserve players.

                              Obviously there are a lot of 'if only's', and I will name them.

                              This team will be successful if

                              - The young PG of the future is indeed able to step up.
                              - Demar and Monroe both become better defenders
                              - JV becomes a true defensive anchor. He has all the tools to do so.

                              etc.

                              Truth be told, If bringing in a solid role player such as Monroe to compliment Durant requires trading one of Ross or Demar (or even Amir) away, I would be very reluctant to do so, but if it makes our team better, we should definitely go for it.

                              And honestly, if we do trade Amir, we can sign him back since he is going to be a FA soon I think the same would apply for Ross.
                              Last edited by YoungGunRaptor; Sat May 31, 2014, 09:09 PM.
                              I know this may be a bit controversial but I think the Raptors have proven that they're the best team in the NBA from Canada
                              -random Facebook user. 2016

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                              • #45
                                Smitchwin's Law in full effect here.

                                We can win a title with Demar on the roster. It just feels like he's good but not quite good enough to carry us there, so we'd need the kind of amazing luck we've simply never had, in landing a major star.

                                And the reality is that we don't have that much time. If you think Kevin Durant will leave for a squad that hasn't made the conference finals you're out of your mind. So we have two years, and our roster as it stands has a second round ceiling. It's why I think the time for patience is over. There will be a lot of chaos in the league this summer.... It looks like the Pacers may also be making moves this summer, in addition to the Grizz, the Wolves, the Celtics, etc etc.

                                Opportunity doesn't knock twice. If we want Durant we've got to start setting the table now.

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