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  • Other Scott wrote: View Post
    There's never 100% consensus. But there's also never 100% dissent with the decision the head coach makes or that's a bad situation.

    Also Toronto tried about 5 different ideas in that Cleveland series, I would be surprised if every assistant didn't get their shot at how to play the defense in that series.
    No one said 100% dissent. If Nurse disagreed with bad decisions, and other assistants agreed, how are you to know? Why do you get to tell us that Nurse is definitely complicit with every mistake the Raptors made? The approach you present is to paint all assistants with every decision that was made. Which is ridiculous, of course.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • DanH wrote: View Post
      I don't buy it. Are we to assume that the assistants would make the same calls as Casey? Heck, Nurse has been trying to get this season's offensive system in place since he was hired, and has been ignored until now.
      But a big part of leadership is being able to sell your vision and get people to buy into your plan. It's a bit of a red flag to me that Nurse wasn't able to influence Casey, Kyle or DeMar to his vision.... after 5 long years. Even when Nurse's system was implemented, it was Masai who had to step in a mandate it... out of frustration.

      The logical point for Nurse to emerge would have been right after the Wizards sweep, but the Raps actually doubled down on even less passing the following season. We need a Doctor, not a Nurse.

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      • golden wrote: View Post
        We need a Doctor, not a Nurse.
        9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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        • golden wrote: View Post
          But a big part of leadership is being able to sell your vision and get people to buy into your plan. It's a bit of a red flag to me that Nurse wasn't able to influence Casey, Kyle or DeMar to his vision.... after 5 long years. Even when Nurse's system was implemented, it was Masai who had to step in a mandate it... out of frustration.

          The logical point for Nurse to emerge would have been right after the Wizards sweep, but the Raps actually doubled down on even less passing the following season. We need a Doctor, not a Nurse.
          Yeah, but the point is Nurse wasn't in a position of leadership. So "selling his vision" is a moot point if the main leader (Casey) has no intention of buying in and instead mandates him to figure out a way to run an offence Casey wants (ie. empty the clip).

          If we learned anything about Casey, it's that he was incredibly stubborn and inflexible with his vision of how he wanted the team to play on both ends.

          Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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          • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            Yeah, but the point is Nurse wasn't in a position of leadership. So "selling his vision" is a moot point if the main leader (Casey) has no intention of buying in and instead mandates him to figure out a way to run an offence Casey wants (ie. empty the clip).

            If we learned anything about Casey, it's that he was incredibly stubborn and inflexible with his vision of how he wanted the team to play on both ends.

            Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
            I'm talking about internally, within the team. Selling your vision can happen at any level. That's just how people rise up through the ranks, in any profession. Thibs is a good example: his vision of defense was being fully implemented by Doc Rivers championship Celtics. His voice was strong enough, even as an assistant, to the point where he was actually more visible than Doc on the sidelines during Celtics defensive possessions. Contrast that to Nick Nurse: he was sitting on a good plan for the modern NBA 5 years ago, but just couldn't sell his secret sauce to Casey, DeMar or Lowry. He had unlimited access to those guys.

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            • I'm not sure Nurse would have stuck around the organization as long as he has if he wasn't be heard, or his opinion not valued. And if he did despite of that what does it say about his character and ability to be a leader?

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              • golden wrote: View Post
                I'm talking about internally, within the team. Selling your vision can happen at any level. That's just how people rise up through the ranks, in any profession. Thibs is a good example: his vision of defense was being fully implemented by Doc Rivers championship Celtics. His voice was strong enough, even as an assistant, to the point where he was actually more visible than Doc on the sidelines during Celtics defensive possessions. Contrast that to Nick Nurse: he was sitting on a good plan for the modern NBA 5 years ago, but just couldn't sell his secret sauce to Casey, DeMar or Lowry. He had unlimited access to those guys.
                Wait, so if Nurse is hired, wouldn't that be an example of him being heard and rising through the ranks? Heck, wouldn't his system being implemented last year be an example of that? Clearly he sold his vision pretty well to some people.

                I don't know that Doc listening to his assistants and Casey not doing so should be laid at the feet of the assistants.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • golden wrote: View Post
                  I'm talking about internally, within the team. Selling your vision can happen at any level. That's just how people rise up through the ranks, in any profession. Thibs is a good example: his vision of defense was being fully implemented by Doc Rivers championship Celtics. His voice was strong enough, even as an assistant, to the point where he was actually more visible than Doc on the sidelines during Celtics defensive possessions. Contrast that to Nick Nurse: he was sitting on a good plan for the modern NBA 5 years ago, but just couldn't sell his secret sauce to Casey, DeMar or Lowry. He had unlimited access to those guys.
                  I get the sense that visionary thinking and pounding the rock weren't compatible.
                  "Stop eating your sushi."
                  "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                  "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                  - Jack Armstrong

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                  • golden wrote: View Post
                    I'm talking about internally, within the team. Selling your vision can happen at any level. That's just how people rise up through the ranks, in any profession. Thibs is a good example: his vision of defense was being fully implemented by Doc Rivers championship Celtics. His voice was strong enough, even as an assistant, to the point where he was actually more visible than Doc on the sidelines during Celtics defensive possessions. Contrast that to Nick Nurse: he was sitting on a good plan for the modern NBA 5 years ago, but just couldn't sell his secret sauce to Casey, DeMar or Lowry. He had unlimited access to those guys.
                    Yeah I still don't buy that.

                    Why would Lowry or Demar want anything to change? Why would Casey? Again, Casey was stubborn, and DeMar and Lowry benefited the most from our previous style of play. Nurse can't go straight to those guys as he'd be undermining Casey as well, which would actually show poor character on Nurse's part.

                    The question of leadership qualities should again be focused on Casey, as Nurse was brought in for his offensive savvy and was a resource Casey basically ignored until Masai all but threatened his job last offseason. A leader recognizes when to "follow" by listening to his top advisers.

                    The failures of someone to "lead" from a position with virtually no real authority isn't an indictment of how they'd do if given that authorit. Again, as an assistant Nurse could only impact game plans as much as Casey allowed him to...so your example is probably more reflective of Doc being better at acknowledging others' input than Casey ever was.

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                    • This is all conjecture

                      Kinda funny seeing everybody stating with matter of factness who gets credit for what amongst the coaching staff
                      9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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                      • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                        This is all conjecture

                        Kinda funny seeing everybody stating with matter of factness who gets credit for what amongst the coaching staff
                        Bitching about what we see on the court is one thing. I think regular fans can have meaningful opinions on that. With regards to this, we have no idea.
                        "Stop eating your sushi."
                        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                        - Jack Armstrong

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                        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                          Yeah I still don't buy that.

                          Why would Lowry or Demar want anything to change? Why would Casey? Again, Casey was stubborn, and DeMar and Lowry benefited the most from our previous style of play. Nurse can't go straight to those guys as he'd be undermining Casey as well, which would actually show poor character on Nurse's part.

                          The question of leadership qualities should again be focused on Casey, as Nurse was brought in for his offensive savvy and was a resource Casey basically ignored until Masai all but threatened his job last offseason. A leader recognizes when to "follow" by listening to his top advisers.

                          The failures of someone to "lead" from a position with virtually no real authority isn't an indictment of how they'd do if given that authorit. Again, as an assistant Nurse could only impact game plans as much as Casey allowed him to...so your example is probably more reflective of Doc being better at acknowledging others' input than Casey ever was.

                          Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
                          This is 100% conjecture. We have no knowledge of Casey being stubborn and not listening to his assistants. All this is based on is Nick Nurse coming to Toronto from a D League team that shot a lot of 3 pointers and not completely revamping the offensive system until the command came down from above to do so.
                          That is a normal collar. Move on, find a new slant.

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                          • JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                            Bitching about what we see on the court is one thing. I think regular fans can have meaningful opinions on that. With regards to this, we have no idea.
                            Exactly. Just bias opinion.

                            Those that want nurse to coach will come up with diatribes that old stubborn Casey ignored his genius.

                            Those that don't want nurse will go off about it being all his system and ideas that didn't work
                            9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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                            • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                              Exactly. Just bias opinion.

                              Those that want nurse to coach will come up with diatribes that old stubborn Casey ignored his genius.

                              Those that don't want nurse will go off about it being all his system and ideas that didn't work
                              Third option: those who are skeptical about having a head nurse are saying he might have a wuss personality to be a leader of alpha males.

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                              • I don't mind if they hire Nurse. By all accounts he will be a good to very good coach.

                                I just think that Casey got fired because of the Cleveland series, and the fact that the Raptors had no answers despite everything they tried, that falls on the whole staff. If you don't believe the Cleveland series was a failure of coaching, then I don't see why you fire Casey other than to scapegoat him. If you do believe that coaching heavily contributed, then hiring his lead assistant who was a principal part of the staff you believe failed doesn't strike me as the move you make.
                                That is a normal collar. Move on, find a new slant.

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