Politics - Can we be civilized

[Uncle_Si]

I'm a conservative. Not a Canadian conservative, a real free market, capitalist conservative. I follow American politics more than I do Canadian because I find Canadian politicians to be an absolute joke.

If you can get outside of how you're told to think about a candidate and truly listen to them I think there is much to be heard and learned. I strongly disagree with Bernie Sanders, he's a devout socialist. But he speaks his mind and speaks to people. I dig that, everyone knows where he stands on issues. There's no hiding behind facades in order to get elected. He says what he thinks and lots of people agree with him. That opens up for healthy debate which I think is lacking in politics these days. It's become more about grand standing and buying votes than discussing ideas and the ideologies that drive them.

That statement applies to all of the relevant politicians making the news these days, except for one. Donald Trump. That man is a rambling, ego maniac with no real message. He just says things in no logical order, he knows what people want to hear and just rambles on about it with no actual policy. However, what he is successful at is raising awareness and debate, I'll give him that. He's really opened up the discussion regarding ILLEGAL immigration in the U.S.

So to start this thread, here are my thoughts on ILLEGAL immigration.

When listening to conservatives talk about illegal immigration please try to keep in mind what they're talking about. It's people that crossed the border illegally and are taking jobs from those that are here legally. Not to mention it completely crushes those that are going through the immigration process LEGALLY. I often hear pundits say that conservatives are against immigration, which is ridiculous. No one I've seen has said they are against immigration, they are against illegal immigration. In a civilized society that provides many social benefits (whether you think they are sufficient or not is another story) there must be a legal process for admitting immigrants, especially if they will be requiring social assistance or taking jobs.

Many people on the left trumpet Norway and Sweden as the staples of socialism and the model for societies around the world. Have a look at their immigration policies and see if you would meet their requirements, I can guarantee you wouldn't. No one does, they have some of the most strict immigration policies in the world.

So to say it is racist to want to deport people that have come into the country ILLEGALLY is simply unfounded. Norway and Sweden would do it in a heart beat, and so should every country in the world. I'm not talking about refugees of war torn countries, or those in serious harms way due to highly unstable and dangerous circumstances. thats a different situation and developing countries should be accepting as many of those types of migrants as their system allows. I think most developed and civilized countries already do with varying degrees of success.

Anyway, I've rambled on enough. Please try to keep the discussion civilized.

My next post will be about Justin Trudeau so fasten your belts!

[Miekenstien]

i think a quick fix for the american illegal problems was touched on in your post. they are refugees fleeing a war torn country. bam problem solved. also saying they are the problem and not the people who are hiring them is ignorant. severely punish all the companies where they are hired and they will not come to find jobs because there won't be any.

this issue is a case of the system failing, not the people trying to survive while being blamed for it.

the reason it gets called racist is because they are talking about mexicans. like saying the urban problem, while meaning blacks. this issue isn't as simple as "send them away and everything will get better"

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...-would-crumble

i would prefer laxer rules of immigration in both canada and america with a family time table to get off government support and contribute to society.

i like how you disclaimered yourself from trump and then gave him credit. the way he "raises awareness" is by spouting some horrendous "mexicans are rapists" bullshit that he doubles down on. using him as an awareness bringer and saying his stance isn't based on racism is a total contradiction. he also raises awareness on how people who are tortured for years in POW camps aren't heroes.

as far as politically lined goes, i am free market and compassionate. i think that the american system is a joke as there is no real choice and that the canadian system at least tries to have different parties with different views, and a much better system of passing laws.


forgot to add that as long as derozan doesn't become one of your topics then this should stay civilized

[Wild-ling#1]

i like how you disclaimered yourself from trump and then gave him credit. the way he "raises awareness" is by spouting some horrendous "mexicans are rapists" bullshit that he doubles down on. using him as an awareness bringer and saying his stance isn't based on racism is a total contradiction. he also raises awareness on how people who are tortured for years in POW camps aren't heroes.

as far as politically lined goes, i am free market and compassionate. i think that the american system is a joke as there is no real choice and that the canadian system at least tries to have different parties with different views, and a much better system of passing laws.
forgot to add that as long as derozan doesn't become one of your topics then this should stay civilized

You meanto tell me all those Mexicans aren't rapists?? BELIEVE THE DONALD!! But I was confused, because .... if so many of them Mexicans are sneaking in, and stealing American jobs, then ... does this mean America actually employs a lot of rapists? How much do they make??

Probably the goddam rapist UNIONS are full of goddam COMMIES! Lowering the wages for American rapists. Or raising them. whichever's Worse! i'M GETTING SICK of even thinking of all those goddamm illegal-immigrant commie-Mexican rapists stealing good american jobs! and all this thinking!!

Why didn't the Donald raise our awareness about all this sooner? Goddamm Government ... Rapists!

[Uncle_Si]

i think a quick fix for the american illegal problems was touched on in your post. they are refugees fleeing a war torn country. bam problem solved. also saying they are the problem and not the people who are hiring them is ignorant. severely punish all the companies where they are hired and they will not come to find jobs because there won't be any.

this issue is a case of the system failing, not the people trying to survive while being blamed for it.

the reason it gets called racist is because they are talking about mexicans. like saying the urban problem, while meaning blacks. this issue isn't as simple as "send them away and everything will get better"

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...-would-crumble

i would prefer laxer rules of immigration in both canada and america with a family time table to get off government support and contribute to society.

i like how you disclaimered yourself from trump and then gave him credit. the way he "raises awareness" is by spouting some horrendous "mexicans are rapists" bullshit that he doubles down on. using him as an awareness bringer and saying his stance isn't based on racism is a total contradiction. he also raises awareness on how people who are tortured for years in POW camps aren't heroes.

as far as politically lined goes, i am free market and compassionate. i think that the american system is a joke as there is no real choice and that the canadian system at least tries to have different parties with different views, and a much better system of passing laws.


forgot to add that as long as derozan doesn't become one of your topics then this should stay civilized

I do give Trump credit for raising issues and getting debates started. And when he spoke about "Mexicans being rapists" he didn't say all Mexicans. He was referring to the illegal immigrant that raped and killed a girl in LA. Same thing happened in South Carolina the week before. He is saying, rapists and hard criminals are coming across the borders and no one knows who they are until the commit a heinous crime. A little bit of context does help.

[Uncle_Si]

You meanto tell me all those Mexicans aren't rapists?? BELIEVE THE DONALD!! But I was confused, because .... if so many of them Mexicans are sneaking in, and stealing American jobs, then ... does this mean America actually employs a lot of rapists? How much do they make??

Probably the goddam rapist UNIONS are full of goddam COMMIES! Lowering the wages for American rapists. Or raising them. whichever's Worse! i'M GETTING SICK of even thinking of all those goddamm illegal-immigrant commie-Mexican rapists stealing good american jobs! and all this thinking!!

Why didn't the Donald raise our awareness about all this sooner? Goddamm Government ... Rapists!

So much for the civilized part...

The part about lowering American wages is true. If you increase the amount of people that can work, by (11million to 30million people) job wages would obviously go down. Especially in a stagnant economy. Right now the U.S. Has the highest amount of people out of the work force since 1950's and the most amount of people on social assistance in history. How does adding 11-30 million people help that?

[Miekenstien]

So much for the civilized part...

The part about lowering American wages is true. If you increase the amount of people that can work, by (11million to 30million people) job wages would obviously go down. Especially in a stagnant economy. Right now the U.S. Has the highest amount of people out of the work force since 1950's and the most amount of people on social assistance in history. How does adding 11-30 million people help that?

i would argue that having trump as the example would bring his type of politics out right away. so if we use the "ignore the words and look for the meaning" then what wild-ling says is spot on.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...ng-in-his-name
here are some of his totally not racist and purely in love with america supporters

"The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else’s problems. [Applause] Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

his exact quote, he nicely gives the general mexican population a kind, some he assumes are good. so actually paying attention to his words and not his backtracking also helps. also some isn't even half, and he only assumes, because he doesn't want to be presumptuous

those 11-30 million people don't get social benefits, pay cash for everything they buy that immediately then goes right back into the economy. i would again argue those people who in their own country get their heads cut off, blown up with grenades and have drug wars all over their country deserve to get out.


here is an article pointing to the donald having illegals in his employ for his own construction work
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...a61_story.html

[Miekenstien]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus

is the poem engraved on the statue of liberty, the symbol of american freedom and justice

[Miekenstien]

http://www.army.mil/hispanicamerican...tatistics.html

here are the percent of hispanics in the us army. i can't figure out how many are anchor baby officers but if we use donalds' totally not racist or generalization numbers it should be most

most poor families have one way out of poverty and that is through the military, freedom isn't free and america has a massive military tradition, starting from the first heinous illegals, the irish. they were lucky enough to be given jobs and citizenship just for throwing themselves into a giant civil war

wop literally means without papers, which population of "americans" aren't from illegals?

[Joey]

This will be a fun thread to moderate ....

[Uncle_Si]

http://www.army.mil/hispanicamerican...tatistics.html

here are the percent of hispanics in the us army. i can't figure out how many are anchor baby officers but if we use donalds' totally not racist or generalization numbers it should be most

most poor families have one way out of poverty and that is through the military, freedom isn't free and america has a massive military tradition, starting from the first heinous illegals, the irish. they were lucky enough to be given jobs and citizenship just for throwing themselves into a giant civil war

wop literally means without papers, which population of "americans" aren't from illegals?

Just because illegal immigration happened in the past doesn't mean it's right to continue now. When the Irish came to the U.S. The social assistance that exists today's did not exist. As much as I would love to solve poverty by letting poorer migrants into the country, it's simply not feasible. The U.S. Has 18 trillion dollars in federal debt. That doesn't count city, municipal and state debt. As far as the military service goes, of course there are Hispanics in the military, there are heroes of all races, backgrounds, sexual orientation etc. but there aren't ILLEGAL immigrants. That's what I'm talking about. You can't just have people come in to a country and not know anything about them. Right now there are thousands of people crossing illegally into the states every day. How many of those people are hard working honest people trying to make a life for themselves, probably a lot. But they are still breaking the law and compromising an immigration system. You can't just have people come into a country and start demanding the same rights to jobs, social assistance, schooling, housing etc. it's just not sustainable. No matter how evil you want to make me sound, it doesn't change the fact.

[Uncle_Si]

This will be a fun thread to moderate ....

Sorry Joey...Hopefully it can be a civilized debate...

[raptors999]

I want to start one on abortion or religion

[Quirk]

The part about lowering American wages is true. If you increase the amount of people that can work, by (11million to 30million people) job wages would obviously go down. Especially in a stagnant economy. Right now the U.S. Has the highest amount of people out of the work force since 1950's and the most amount of people on social assistance in history. How does adding 11-30 million people help that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

conservative: uses arguments based on economics to support mean spirited policy without ever studying economics.

[Uncle_Si]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

conservative: uses arguments based on economics to support mean spirited policy without ever studying economics.

Lol, ask Greece how well the opposite works.

[Bendit]

Lol, ask Greece how well the opposite works.

Greece is a terrible comparative re current economic condition and how to extricate from/correct it. Of course, successive Greek have plenty to be blamed for but being part of the Euro zone economic pact is like being in a straight jacket regarding having the freedom to make their own economic policy. Their central bank is effectively run by the Germans (ECB)....who were more than happy to keep lending to Greece over the years without effective controls. Lots of blame to go around.

[Quirk]

Lol, ask Greece how well the opposite works.

Non sequitor. As expected.

[raptors999]

I'm conservative but find more others to be protectionist / isolationists which is the opposite of small government

[Uncle_Si]

Non sequitor. As expected.

Have a look at the number of immigrants/refugees Greece has absorbed then tell me that's the case.

[Bendit]

Have a look at the number of immigrants/refugees Greece has absorbed then tell me that's the case.

Thats called upholding the tenets of basic human rights. Kudos to the Greeks. They continue to save families from drowning inspite of their economic conditions.

[Wild-ling#1]

Just because illegal immigration happened in the past doesn't mean it's right to continue now. When the Irish came to the U.S. The social assistance that exists today's did not exist. As much as I would love to solve poverty by letting poorer migrants into the country, it's simply not feasible. The U.S. Has 18 trillion dollars in federal debt. That doesn't count city, municipal and state debt. As far as the military service goes, of course there are Hispanics in the military, there are heroes of all races, backgrounds, sexual orientation etc. but there aren't ILLEGAL immigrants. That's what I'm talking about. You can't just have people come in to a country and not know anything about them. Right now there are thousands of people crossing illegally into the states every day. How many of those people are hard working honest people trying to make a life for themselves, probably a lot. But they are still breaking the law and compromising an immigration system. You can't just have people come into a country and start demanding the same rights to jobs, social assistance, schooling, housing etc. it's just not sustainable. No matter how evil you want to make me sound, it doesn't change the fact.

Illegal immigrants can't come into your country and demand social assistance, etc., Si. They can't even access such systems. You must see that. Ergo the notion that they're a drain on the economy has to be false.

If you considered this subject important enough to raise, Si, then you ought to feel honour-bound to consider it thoughtfully enough to avoid obvious logical/factual errors.

You're not talking basketball now. Basketball talk is supposed to be fun. This is, comparatively (well, simply) a very serious subject. And no one dragged you into it, Si.