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Easy shots. Dunks, layups, open 3's.

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  • #16
    Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    We are better at moving the ball, we're actually 5th in passes made.

    Problem is, we're not effective at moving the ball for a good shot, it shows as we're 3rd last (37.4) in Potential Assists per Game. That is, passes that would have been assists had a shot been made. Middle of the table in that stat is 43 (OKC), at the top 57.1 (GSW).

    We don't use our passing to create easy looks, it's ineffective ball movement.
    Haven't seen enough to be sure but I feel like a lot of that is swinging the ball around on the perimeter where defenders are already set up. Not the kind of movement plus player motion that creates breakdowns in the defense.

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    • #17
      Scraptor wrote: View Post
      Haven't seen enough to be sure but I feel like a lot of that is swinging the ball around on the perimeter where defenders are already set up. Not the kind of movement plus player motion that creates breakdowns in the defense.
      Yep. Not absolving Ross, 2Pat and Carroll, but s Raptor open 3 is a bit different than a "rhythm" open 3 from a set play, like you see the Hawks and Spurs run.

      Carroll, in particular, looks a bit surprised and doesn't always have his feet set when he gets a Demar "pitch-back", for example. Still, it's technically an open 3 and Carroll is getting $15M/yr, so the expectation of him is raised from last season.

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      • #18
        TRex wrote: View Post
        Main problem w/ this Raps team by far is their offence. 1 on 1 pretty much every possession. Dumb shot selection. You have Lowry taking long pull up 3's and fadeways in crucial situation, and then you have DeRozan taking unnecessary turnaround shots and pull up j's. Then you have Patterson passing up on open 3's. I can go on and on. It's tough to watch.

        Raptors need to find a way to create EASY shots. Dunks, layups, open 3's. Their offence right now is completely UNWATCHABLE.
        I actually disagree - I think they're overpassing a lot of the time. I've been screaming at the TV watching them pass up open shots early in the clock in favour of excessive drive and kick, often taking a much more difficult, forced shot at the end of the clock. I feel like in camp the team was told to share the ball and look for each other more as a response to last year's offensive, and now they're overdoing it. Patterson and Carroll are definitely guilty of this, and it has a trickle down effect; when the guys who are supposed to be your release valve shooters are passing up shots, the defence shrinks in and makes it harder for everyone else.

        Sure they revert back to iso ball when things get tough, but guess what: other than the Spurs and Warriors, you can say the same about virtually every other team in the league.

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        • #19
          Lark Benson wrote: View Post
          I actually disagree - I think they're overpassing a lot of the time. I've been screaming at the TV watching them pass up open shots early in the clock in favour of excessive drive and kick, often taking a much more difficult, forced shot at the end of the clock. I feel like in camp the team was told to share the ball and look for each other more as a response to last year's offensive, and now they're overdoing it. Patterson and Carroll are definitely guilty of this, and it has a trickle down effect; when the guys who are supposed to be your release valve shooters are passing up shots, the defence shrinks in and makes it harder for everyone else.

          Sure they revert back to iso ball when things get tough, but guess what: other than the Spurs and Warriors, you can say the same about virtually every other team in the league.
          The only playoff team that do that are Rockets and OKC for obvious reasons. Grizz but it isnt the same.

          Bulls do but its a source of friction with Rose

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          • #20
            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
            I actually disagree - I think they're overpassing a lot of the time. I've been screaming at the TV watching them pass up open shots early in the clock in favour of excessive drive and kick, often taking a much more difficult, forced shot at the end of the clock. I feel like in camp the team was told to share the ball and look for each other more as a response to last year's offensive, and now they're overdoing it. Patterson and Carroll are definitely guilty of this, and it has a trickle down effect; when the guys who are supposed to be your release valve shooters are passing up shots, the defence shrinks in and makes it harder for everyone else.

            Sure they revert back to iso ball when things get tough, but guess what: other than the Spurs and Warriors, you can say the same about virtually every other team in the league.
            i agree with this. i disagree with the idea that this team resembles last years team. the magic loss was tight but i think that long/young/athletic teams are going to be our bane. the heat loss, will watch the game tonight, seems to be a tale of two teams. the first half seems to be what we are hoping for/growing towards and the second half was the painful reminder that we aren't there yet.

            i don't think there is too much pressure on our 3pt shooters. all they have to do is exactly what they have done for their own careers. that isn't a pressure filled situation. ross i can excuse due to the new contract and the stress that would add, carrol if the foot is true i can excuse until we get to his stupid/ugly drives that end in weird tosses towards the basket. i am disappointed in patterson though, he should be shooting better. his defense and ross's hasn't been bad. the entire teams' defense has been really good and hopefully maintains.

            our shooters hit their career averages, we win the magic game. our shooters hit their averages we are not getting slaughtered in that third quarter against the heat and who knows what happens.

            i disagree with the view that demar is reverting back to his old ways. the magic game he was the only one hitting anything and was still driving and dishing to wide open shooters. w i d e open looks being missed.

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            • #21
              raptors999 wrote: View Post
              The only playoff team that do that are Rockets and OKC for obvious reasons. Grizz but it isnt the same.

              Bulls do but its a source of friction with Rose
              the okc game i watched the okc feed. the announcers were complaining about the iso ball being played by durant and westbrook. durant who hit 10/18 shots and they were complaining

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              • #22
                Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                the okc game i watched the okc feed. the announcers were complaining about the iso ball being played by durant and westbrook. durant who hit 10/18 shots and they were complaining
                if you have Durant and Westbrook its really tempting to go ISO and often youll be rewarded. Both are likely to score efficiently in ISO against 90% of the league. Problem becomes as you face better and better teams for more games. Houston suffers the same problem.

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                • #23
                  tDotted wrote: View Post
                  Our team is in a weird situation. Not many teams (if any) can boast having 4 guys who can shoot 37%+ from 3. Our problem (like what you're saying Mixx) is that there's too much pressure on them. Those 4 guys are the only guys who actually attempt 3s for the team. No balance there.

                  But OP, our best finishers consistently get the least looks on a nightly basis. JJ and JV combined for what.. 3 attempts in the second half? There's your problem.
                  The problem is the same problem as last year: DeMar DeRozan is a shooting guard who can't make threes.

                  When you have that issue, it doesn't matter how good the team is or the shooting guard is at other things than shooting threes: you have a major spacing problem, because modern NBA offenses need at least two shooters and preferably three who can be perimeter threats. Usually SG is a position where one of your shooters makes his bones, which means you can find your other shooters at other positions more easily; your center usually won't make threes unless you're playing serious small ball, but it means you only need two shooters out of your point guard, small forward and power forward. That's manageable.

                  But with DeMar not making threes and Jonas not making threes, that means that the spacing threat has to come from PG, SF and PF. Kyle is an acceptably decent three-point threat, and DeMarre is a good one - but at power forward, only Patterson is really a solid distance shooter, and when his three isn't dropping the team clutters the paint rapidly. Off the bench, only Ross is a serious three-point threat - everybody else ranges from "okay" to "not good at all."

                  Miami has a better version of DeMar in Dwyane Wade, and they have exactly the same spacing problems this year that we do because Wade can't shoot the three either. It's crucial for an SG to shoot the three now, absolutely crucial. And despite his inability to hit that shot consistently, DeMar is still gonna get twenty million from somebody this year. It's kind of amazing.

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                  • #24
                    magoon wrote: View Post
                    The problem is the same problem as last year: DeMar DeRozan is a shooting guard who can't make threes.

                    When you have that issue, it doesn't matter how good the team is or the shooting guard is at other things than shooting threes: you have a major spacing problem, because modern NBA offenses need at least two shooters and preferably three who can be perimeter threats. Usually SG is a position where one of your shooters makes his bones, which means you can find your other shooters at other positions more easily; your center usually won't make threes unless you're playing serious small ball, but it means you only need two shooters out of your point guard, small forward and power forward. That's manageable.

                    But with DeMar not making threes and Jonas not making threes, that means that the spacing threat has to come from PG, SF and PF. Kyle is an acceptably decent three-point threat, and DeMarre is a good one - but at power forward, only Patterson is really a solid distance shooter, and when his three isn't dropping the team clutters the paint rapidly. Off the bench, only Ross is a serious three-point threat - everybody else ranges from "okay" to "not good at all."

                    Miami has a better version of DeMar in Dwyane Wade, and they have exactly the same spacing problems this year that we do because Wade can't shoot the three either. It's crucial for an SG to shoot the three now, absolutely crucial. And despite his inability to hit that shot consistently, DeMar is still gonna get twenty million from somebody this year. It's kind of amazing.
                    Raptor would honestly benefit with CoJo and Demar swapping roles late. Also using Demar as a wing with the second unit might help Ross and 2Pats, easier defenders and help CoJo by adding a second guardthat can dribbple and pass

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                    • #25
                      magoon wrote: View Post
                      The problem is the same problem as last year: DeMar DeRozan is a shooting guard who can't make threes.

                      When you have that issue, it doesn't matter how good the team is or the shooting guard is at other things than shooting threes: you have a major spacing problem, because modern NBA offenses need at least two shooters and preferably three who can be perimeter threats. Usually SG is a position where one of your shooters makes his bones, which means you can find your other shooters at other positions more easily; your center usually won't make threes unless you're playing serious small ball, but it means you only need two shooters out of your point guard, small forward and power forward. That's manageable.

                      But with DeMar not making threes and Jonas not making threes, that means that the spacing threat has to come from PG, SF and PF. Kyle is an acceptably decent three-point threat, and DeMarre is a good one - but at power forward, only Patterson is really a solid distance shooter, and when his three isn't dropping the team clutters the paint rapidly. Off the bench, only Ross is a serious three-point threat - everybody else ranges from "okay" to "not good at all."

                      Miami has a better version of DeMar in Dwyane Wade, and they have exactly the same spacing problems this year that we do because Wade can't shoot the three either. It's crucial for an SG to shoot the three now, absolutely crucial. And despite his inability to hit that shot consistently, DeMar is still gonna get twenty million from somebody this year. It's kind of amazing.
                      And I hope that "somebody" isn't us.

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                      • #26
                        i feel like a big issue is the lack of consistency at the 4. you're basically hoping one of Scola or Patterson (or Bennett?) plays well, meanwhile...

                        need to make a move to get a starting caliber PF (i know, i know) and more punch off the bench. one guy who i think would fit in nicely and we could probably get is Gorgui Dieng out of Minnesota. dude is crazy efficient and would fit in nicely. no idea how that would work, just throwing out an option.
                        @sweatpantsjer

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                        • #27
                          ceez wrote: View Post
                          i feel like a big issue is the lack of consistency at the 4. you're basically hoping one of Scola or Patterson (or Bennett?) plays well, meanwhile...

                          need to make a move to get a starting caliber PF (i know, i know) and more punch off the bench. one guy who i think would fit in nicely and we could probably get is Gorgui Dieng out of Minnesota. dude is crazy efficient and would fit in nicely. no idea how that would work, just throwing out an option.
                          The bench shouldn't be this bad offensively. Casey regularly leaves one starting guard in for the first couple minutes with the bench, then brings the other in for the last couple minutes. When you end up with CoJo, DD, Ross, PP, and Bismack on the floor together, they should be able to score some points. My only thoughts:
                          - The offense so far works the best when off-ball players are reading and reacting. The bench guys don't move off the ball at all.
                          - Add the stagnant movement to the fact that Bismack's man can cheat off him, and you're basically playing 4 on 5 without enough movement, trying to get shots for spot-up shooters. Except instead of that the spot-up shooters end up trying to create shots for themselves just as often as not.
                          - One clear pass that's regularly available in this situation is Bismack near the basket. Because the other team left him alone for a reason. He can't score.
                          - Even with these problems, Ross and PP have been missing open shots. They're both good enough 3pt shooters - eventually those shots are going to fall and things should open up a bit.
                          - I'd still like to see Scola operating as a facilitator out of the post with the bench unit.
                          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                          • #28
                            ceez wrote: View Post
                            i feel like a big issue is the lack of consistency at the 4. you're basically hoping one of Scola or Patterson (or Bennett?) plays well, meanwhile...

                            need to make a move to get a starting caliber PF (i know, i know) and more punch off the bench. one guy who i think would fit in nicely and we could probably get is Gorgui Dieng out of Minnesota. dude is crazy efficient and would fit in nicely. no idea how that would work, just throwing out an option.
                            Dieng has a good skill set, but the IQ seems too low for a starter. I'm hoping all our future starters are smart enough to be able to swing the ball. Milsap would have been so nice on this roster

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                            • #29
                              ceez wrote: View Post
                              i feel like a big issue is the lack of consistency at the 4. you're basically hoping one of Scola or Patterson (or Bennett?) plays well, meanwhile...

                              need to make a move to get a starting caliber PF (i know, i know) and more punch off the bench. one guy who i think would fit in nicely and we could probably get is Gorgui Dieng out of Minnesota. dude is crazy efficient and would fit in nicely. no idea how that would work, just throwing out an option.
                              The 4 isn't our biggest problem, especially in a current league where half the time we're playing against smallball teams and DeMarre is playing the 4 anyway - our best lineup so far has been Lowry/CoJo/DeMar/DeMarre/JV in most games. Scola/2Pat/Bennett is a perfectly decent platoon for when we need to bang against bigs; Scola's the best scorer and passer, Patterson gives the most spacing, Bennett is the best rebounder and defender (and has the most room to improve on other areas of his game), so you have a toolbox attitude towards the PF position and that's fine.

                              The Raps' Achilles' heel is shooting. We're currently 18th in 3P% and and 23rd in FG%. If it weren't for free throws our team TS% would be in the toilet, and as it is we're only 14th. Dieng is a good player, sure, but he's a good player on a team where you get good shooting, because he's a defender whose shot hasn't really arrived and isn't really a good passer, and we already have Bismack Biyombo for that.

                              What Raptors fans want out of the PF spot is, essentially, a star-level player, and unless we sign Al Horford next summer that isn't happening because all the others are locked up.

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                              • #30
                                S.R. wrote: View Post
                                The bench shouldn't be this bad offensively. Casey regularly leaves one starting guard in for the first couple minutes with the bench, then brings the other in for the last couple minutes. When you end up with CoJo, DD, Ross, PP, and Bismack on the floor together, they should be able to score some points. My only thoughts:
                                - The offense so far works the best when off-ball players are reading and reacting. The bench guys don't move off the ball at all.
                                - Add the stagnant movement to the fact that Bismack's man can cheat off him, and you're basically playing 4 on 5 without enough movement, trying to get shots for spot-up shooters. Except instead of that the spot-up shooters end up trying to create shots for themselves just as often as not.
                                - One clear pass that's regularly available in this situation is Bismack near the basket. Because the other team left him alone for a reason. He can't score.
                                - Even with these problems, Ross and PP have been missing open shots. They're both good enough 3pt shooters - eventually those shots are going to fall and things should open up a bit.
                                - I'd still like to see Scola operating as a facilitator out of the post with the bench unit.
                                I hate seeing DeRozan play with the bench. The backup unit plays well when Joseph is breaking down defenses with his dribble, moving the ball and finding open players (Patterson & Ross) for 3pt shots. When DeRozan plays with that unit he dominates the ball and tends to go ISO more, which negates the strengths of the lineup.

                                At least when Lowry plays with them he is able to defer to Joseph and play off the ball, providing another 3pt threat.

                                The backup lineup so desperately needs an interior presence that demands attention from the defense. Scola would be so effective playing a high/low game with Joseph, with Biyombo in for rebounding and Ross in for 3pt shooting.

                                That means that the 5th player needs to be Lowry or Carroll, to help spread the floor. DeRozan is too ball dominant and can't shoot the 3, so he's a bad fit. JJ plays great off the ball, but he can't shoot the 3. If Bennett could prove to be an effective spread-4, I could see him and JJ joining Scola in the front court. That would mean that Biyombo becomes the odd-man out, but I think the rebounding would be more than fine with Scola, Bennett and JJ.

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