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  • #46
    Axel wrote: View Post
    Any concerns should be addressed via PM directed to any of the mods or admin (cc more than one if you wish). If you haven't done so yet, please do so.

    The reason we ask for PM is that it isn't fair to all of the readers of the site to have to read through multiple posts that have nothing to do with the topic that they chose to try and read. That is why posts regarding issues that are not related to the basketball topic get deleted. We can still see them if we need to reference anything.

    Once the PM is provided, the mods and admin can share and discuss via the mods sub-forum (visible only to us) and the conversation can go from there.

    I would also encourage users to use the Report Post function when they see a post that they feel is against the rules and to not engage with the poster themselves. Reporting posts sends a message to all mods and creates a new thread in the sub-forum for us to review with direct link to the post in question. We cannot read every post in every thread (we are volunteers), so this allows us to be aware of any issues.

    For the same reason as mentioned above, in addition to forum rules regarding moderating other users, do not engage with the poster if you have a problem with their post.

    Thanks
    This whole thread has nothing to do with basketball. There should be a transparent way (like here) for all members to understand any grievance with a mod. That shouldnt be a backroom discussion.
    I did PM two mods at the time
    You know what forget it, I'm done. This is gonna be toxic environment anyway bc that's what people here want. Sinbad and I are the only ones that spoke out against racism and bullying. They insulted us, silenced us, punished us and now you want a closed door meeting amongst yourselves. Forget it. You can have the racist bullies. You deal with it or don't. It's your world.

    Comment


    • #47
      lewro wrote: View Post
      This whole thread has nothing to do with basketball. There should be a transparent way (like here) for all members to understand any grievance with a mod. That shouldnt be a backroom discussion.
      I did PM two mods at the time
      You know what forget it, I'm done. This is gonna be toxic environment anyway bc that's what people here want. Sinbad and I are the only ones that spoke out against racism and bullying. They insulted us, silenced us, punished us and now you want a closed door meeting amongst yourselves. Forget it. You can have the racist bullies. You deal with it or don't. It's your world.
      Yes, this thread is a different topic; I was making reference to your comment that your posts were deleted from other threads and explaining the rationale.

      Transparency: the rules are posted for all to see, as are the infraction system guidelines; that is fairly transparent for how things are dealt with from our perspective. I wouldn't classify it as a backroom discussion, but I can understand why it might appear that way. In the end, the mods need an avenue to have the open discussion without bogging down threads intended for other topics. These discussions would still include PM exchanges to include concerned parties into the discussion.

      There is an on-going thread in the mods forum regarding your concerns, but as of yet I haven't seen any posts related to any PM you sent to another mod; again, we are volunteers with outside jobs and lives, so timing isn't always going to be as quick as people may want all of the time.

      If you wish to leave, that is fully your choice, but I really do believe that this is the best place to talk Raptors basketball, with passionate, intelligent fans. I do not believe that we are encouraging any racism or bullying. If the report post function had been used on these racist posts, then perhaps that conversation would have been dealt with already, but assertions that the posts are out there aren't nearly as helpful to get them remedied as it would be if they were simply reported.

      As for the bullying, it seems to me that you are making certain assumptions regarding the exchange between Abbas and other posters. We haven't heard anything from Abbas and don't know the relationship between the posters (they could be best friends outside of RR or classmates or cousins), which is why we expect people to not attempt to jump in between other posters exchanges. If Abbas was insulted, I would expect Abbas to be the one to say so. Since I haven't seen anything, I will continue to assume that he has no issue with the comments.

      CRF is certainly not going to accept racist or bullying comments, nor would any other mod/admin; but as far as I can see, CRF is simply asking that you respect the procedures that have been put in place to deal with these concerns. It's two (or three) separate issues entirely at this point. Racist comments that have yet to be properly identified (I don't know which thread or when); comments made to Abbas that may or may not offend Abbas; and how concerned posters should address their concerns. CRF has acted on the third one because that is the only one we definitely are aware of.

      Hope this helps you understand where CRF and the rest of us are coming from.
      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

      Comment


      • #48
        No, you've got hate speech on your forum and I'm insulted by another member as hypersensitive for speaking out against that. That hate speech is still on your board so you wear it if it fits your m.o. but it's gross. Worse yet, your mod further calls me hypersensitive and deletes protest against hate speech while harbouring and preserving the offensive statements.
        Abbas is free to defend himself. He wasn't in the room at the time. I stated in the thread this is his prerogative and apologized to him if I falsely assumed his disposition. That's on record. No one else, including your mod, gave him this credence. That's an essential point. You can't assume that you, the mods, or the rules are absolute. Rules are made to be broken and in this case societal ideals of free speech, without discrimination, ridicule and unwarranted censorship should prevail. Otherwise, you have a toxic environment. You have two separate complaints in this instance. We are not the culprits, we are the only members defending these ideals, which is frightening and despairing.
        Your moderator assumed Abbas was not offended. There's a pattern of members making fun of Abbas. Maybe it is his cousin, maybe he feels intimidated? Neither of us know that but the comments have nothing to do with basketball, we know this.
        If I said "God help us if 'Axel' is the voice of reason", that's an insult. You wouldn't be offended? Maybe Abbas is not offended but I am offended by a culture that encourages and defends ridicule. It does not add any value to the conversation and makes me hesitate to contribute here. I think Sinbad and possibly others feel the same? You are preferencing hate speech and bullying over those who call for civility. To what end? The moderator is the sole judge of decorum? Sorry but all members of a society speak for its mores, not just those in power. That's a dictatorship. I approached the mods in this thread and your direction was toward PM and a private mod thread. That's not transparent or democratic.
        You can accuse me of infringing on the role of the moderator but if the moderators tolerate hate speech and a culture of insults than I am happy to be on the wrong side of the rules bc the rules are indecent. I'd hope that more people would speak out against that behaviour and the fact that they don't and worse still, defend it here is disgusting and sickening.

        Comment


        • #49
          lewro wrote: View Post
          No, you've got hate speech on your forum and I'm insulted by another member as hypersensitive for speaking out against that. That hate speech is still on your board so you wear it if it fits your m.o. but it's gross. Worse yet, your mod further calls me hypersensitive and deletes protest against hate speech while harbouring and preserving the offensive statements.
          Abbas is free to defend himself. He wasn't in the room at the time. I stated in the thread this is his prerogative and apologized to him if I falsely assumed his disposition. That's on record. No one else, including your mod, gave him this credence. That's an essential point. You can't assume that you, the mods, or the rules are absolute. Rules are made to be broken and in this case societal ideals of free speech, without discrimination, ridicule and unwarranted censorship should prevail. Otherwise, you have a toxic environment. You have two separate complaints in this instance. We are not the culprits, we are the only members defending these ideals, which is frightening and despairing.
          Your moderator assumed Abbas was not offended. There's a pattern of members making fun of Abbas. Maybe it is his cousin, maybe he feels intimidated? Neither of us know that but the comments have nothing to do with basketball, we know this.
          If I said "God help us if 'Axel' is the voice of reason", that's an insult. You wouldn't be offended? Maybe Abbas is not offended but I am offended by a culture that encourages and defends ridicule. It does not add any value to the conversation and makes me hesitate to contribute here. I think Sinbad and possibly others feel the same? You are preferencing hate speech and bullying over those who call for civility. To what end? The moderator is the sole judge of decorum? Sorry but all members of a society speak for its mores, not just those in power. That's a dictatorship. I approached the mods in this thread and your direction was toward PM and a private mod thread. That's not transparent or democratic.
          You can accuse me of infringing on the role of the moderator but if the moderators tolerate hate speech and a culture of insults than I am happy to be on the wrong side of the rules bc the rules are indecent. I'd hope that more people would speak out against that behaviour and the fact that they don't and worse still, defend it here is disgusting and sickening.
          Please, identify where this hate speech is and I will gladly remove it. You have not identified it's location or content yet are holding us accountable for it's content and existence. If the report function had been used, we would have definitively seen the post and could have acted.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

          Comment


          • #50
            Axel wrote: View Post
            Please, identify where this hate speech is and I will gladly remove it. You have not identified it's location or content yet are holding us accountable for it's content and existence. If the report function had been used, we would have definitively seen the post and could have acted.
            I will do that on the following conditions:
            You remove all infractions against me and Sinbad.
            You reinstate all deleted posts that protest against hate speech.
            Contact Abbas to ask him if he feels like he is ridiculed by others in this forum. If so, warn anyone that he feels offended by. If not, I will apologize to anyone that I have offended by speaking on his behalf.
            An infraction is given to KeonClark
            Apologies are issued to me and Sinbad by KeonClark and CRF.
            All posts describing me as hypersensitive are deleted.
            An account of these events are listed in this thread for all to see.

            Are you willing to do all that or continue with a culture of hate speech and bullying?

            I've seen you personally take insult from Dan Hackett describing your post as a "fool's game". I took issue with that as well. No one accused me of moderation. That's not a fruitful discussion, it's just ridicule. It actually has the affect of dismissing further discussion, which seems to have been your rebuttal? That's exactly how i feel now. That's exactly what I felt for Abbas (however potentially correct or misplaced?). You don't think that's a part of the culture here? Well, I saw it happen to you. Maybe some don't feel as empowered to speak out as you do? Even if Abbas is not offended, it creates a culture that is tolerant of insults and bullying. That's happening here imo. I see it everyday. If others permit it or participate than that describes their values and those of this community.

            It's incumbent on all of us to speak out against hate speech - where and when it happens and in unison. It's bigger than the rules and bureaucratic channels of this forum.

            I love basketball too but I'm not gonna compromise my values for permission to speak here. While I do enjoy talking raps, I don't appreciate the frequent insulting comments that happen regularly and needlessly. Perhaps there is some discipline levied in private channels but it doesn't seem to curb the behavior or demonstrate an open, welcome and transparent environment.

            I doubt you will even consider my stipulations. If that's true then I dont think you are taking an honest account of the bullying and ridicule that occurs on the forum everyday. That needs to be addressed. Thank goodness people like Sinbad speak out against it and for shame to those that don't, particularly CRF who chooses to censor appeals for decency and gives license and voice to bullies and hate mongerers. Why? Bc he is the moderator of decency? No, we all share in the responsibility to be decent and speak out against indecency. Flagging a comment is a secondary and bureaucratic response. We all know what decency is, it's not comments on Hitler or undermining Abbas' sense of reason. I think you know this? I'm not so sure about CRF tho?

            Comment


            • #51
              Cody73 wrote:
              Yo, lew.

              The issue was set off by you trying to moderate others. Thats our job, not yours. Like Axel said, if you have an issue with a post, hit the alert button. We will then review the post. You also didn't help yourself by going ahead and taking a badly done comparison and making it seem like were racist. That's wrong on both ends. And i have to admit, the discussion seems to have gotten out of hand.

              CGR probably isn't going to apologize, and I cant say the should or shouldn't. But please, leave the moderation to us. We dont need a micromod.

              Have a good one, K? And go Raptors!
              i'm posting my response in the "Infraction" thread. if you guys think that Abbas is not the regular butt of jokes then you are kidding yourself. so what he said he has a source!? the guy is a totally enthusiastic fan and i've never seen him say a cruel word about anyone. allowing that to continue just degenerates the board to a place of derision, contempt and ridicule. it has nothing to do with basketball and it's just gross. people who take pleasure from that are sick and people that condone it are apathetic and no less responsible, particularly if they are in a position of power.

              if you think comparing a poor officiating decision in a basketball game to the holocaust or racially motivated police killing is ok then i think you should take a break from basketball and turn on the tv. hate crime is rampant since trump took power. everyone needs to speak out against that kind of rhetoric in our society. here, in the workplace, everywhere. you don't reduce a global epidemic down to a basketball game. that creates apathy and empowers hate crime/speech. that's why you see so many insults toward Abbas and others - people think that it's ok and what is more, that it's funny. KeonClark used that rhetoric to call attention to his point in an inflammatory nature. he knew people would get upset. he called me and Sinbad "the politically correct brigade". that's exactly what's happening in Trump circles. IT'S NOT OK! he then reintroduced the discussion the next day, to call me hypersensitive, in support of allowing others to ridicule Abbas. That's a pattern and creates a culture. Indeed, we see this in the real world and it is reflected in the forum. All of us, including the moderators are responsible to denounce this behaviour.
              I am judging by your comments that you have read the hate speech comments in question? if this is true, that's very disturbing that I have been asked by Axel to flag those comments and that they still persist on the forum. That shows me that you guys are ok with those comments on the board. Can you imagine if an ESPN commentator compared Ross' 3 to the holocaust!? that guy would be fired immediately. no one would be deleting opposition to these sentiments or threatening to ban or discipline those appeals. It's not right. Period. Doesn't matter whether it comes from KeonClark or Donald Trump. It's hate. Period.
              Please conduct future correspondence on this issue in the "Infractions" thread. This should be a public discussion. All members should understand that racial or genocidal remarks are inflammatory, insensitive and have no place in a discussion about basketball. Nor do insults of other members.

              Comment


              • #52
                Despite the lack of cooperation, I believe I have tracked down the offending post and subsequent fallout and deleted the posts.

                Your stipulations really shatter any illusions about you acting as a moral authority as you are literally trying to leverage the situation to get what you want. A few are rejected for very specific reasons:
                - regardless of how you feel, it's not your place to moderate other posters. There are avenues to address your concerns and those are expected to be used.

                - reinstating posts in threads that have nothing to do with the topic is unfair to the many other users who wish to read the topics intended.

                - I will not drag Abbas into this any further. All of these posts are public and he can speak for himself. I struggle to believe that he wouldn't send a PM to any of the mods or admin if he felt the need to (or use the report function).

                - You are welcome to ask KeonClark for an apology if you wish but I'm certainly in no position to force him to and frankly, is an apology from some dude on the internet really going to make any difference?

                For your comment regarding an exchange between Dan and I, I assure you that I was not offended and was merely reminding Dan that it wasn't his place to discourage a topic of discussion (any more than it's your place to moderate other posters). Dan and I have both been very active posters over the years and I have no issues with Dan nor, to my knowledge, him with me.

                Hate speech is not tolerated here. If the KeonClark comments I saw are in fact the ones you are concerned with, then I have to say that I would classify them as poor taste and crude much more than hate. We've seen real hateful posts on here in the past (long winded anti-Muslim posts for example) and KeonClark's posts are far from that. I will PM him about this but I do not see anything that warrants any action beyond that. Again, without cooperation I am simply able to go off of the posts I did see.

                The decision to stay or go is completely yours. You've had similar comments from multiple mods and I suspect there might be more to come. I hope that you can appreciate our position and consider staying. You can't justify breaking the rules yourself just because you see someone else doing it. We have repeatedly asked that you follow the procedures that have been a part of this site for years and allow us to perform our role as moderators. It's an ongoing battle akin to herding cats and we appreciate all the cooperation we can get.
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Axel wrote: View Post
                  Despite the lack of cooperation, I believe I have tracked down the offending post and subsequent fallout and deleted the posts.

                  Your stipulations really shatter any illusions about you acting as a moral authority as you are literally trying to leverage the situation to get what you want. A few are rejected for very specific reasons:
                  - regardless of how you feel, it's not your place to moderate other posters. There are avenues to address your concerns and those are expected to be used.

                  - reinstating posts in threads that have nothing to do with the topic is unfair to the many other users who wish to read the topics intended.

                  - I will not drag Abbas into this any further. All of these posts are public and he can speak for himself. I struggle to believe that he wouldn't send a PM to any of the mods or admin if he felt the need to (or use the report function).

                  - You are welcome to ask KeonClark for an apology if you wish but I'm certainly in no position to force him to and frankly, is an apology from some dude on the internet really going to make any difference?

                  For your comment regarding an exchange between Dan and I, I assure you that I was not offended and was merely reminding Dan that it wasn't his place to discourage a topic of discussion (any more than it's your place to moderate other posters). Dan and I have both been very active posters over the years and I have no issues with Dan nor, to my knowledge, him with me.

                  Hate speech is not tolerated here. If the KeonClark comments I saw are in fact the ones you are concerned with, then I have to say that I would classify them as poor taste and crude much more than hate. We've seen real hateful posts on here in the past (long winded anti-Muslim posts for example) and KeonClark's posts are far from that. I will PM him about this but I do not see anything that warrants any action beyond that. Again, without cooperation I am simply able to go off of the posts I did see.

                  The decision to stay or go is completely yours. You've had similar comments from multiple mods and I suspect there might be more to come. I hope that you can appreciate our position and consider staying. You can't justify breaking the rules yourself just because you see someone else doing it. We have repeatedly asked that you follow the procedures that have been a part of this site for years and allow us to perform our role as moderators. It's an ongoing battle akin to herding cats and we appreciate all the cooperation we can get.
                  "Moral authority"? Sinbad was the OP, I just backed him. It's just common human decency. That's all we were trying to defend and your mod deleted it. No one was "leveraging" anything. I didn't participate in that conversation bc i wanted to "leverage" anything. Both Sinbad and I were trying to defend civility. KeonClark was trying to inflame response by trivializing human tragedy to make a point about a game. That's not "poor taste", poor taste is high black socks with shorts. Trivializing human suffering based on race and religion is hate. Worse comments being made is no excuse. EVER. How do you know I didn't lose family in the Holocaust? You think I'd interpret that as "poor taste"? It's incredibly hurtful. That makes it hate speech and permitting it allows others to make similar statements. Especially deleting protests. Everyone should know that's not ok. Thank you for deleting the offensive material. Anyone reading the forum prior to that would have a completely different read on what's appropriate. It matters.

                  The apology is not the point, it's a recognition and demonstration that the behaviour is not condoned on the forum, which still seems in question? "Crude" does not inspire confidence.

                  If you are fine with Dan calling you a fool than that's your opinion but hes called me various names and I do have a problem with that. I have a problem that I witness these remarks daily and there doesn't seem like anyone is deterred. Seems like it's encouraged. Seems like it's funny. KeonClark certainly enjoyed making me and Sinbad upset. Seems like you get deleted, attacked and sanctioned if you speak out.

                  Again, Abbas can speak for himself, I addressed that from the OP. I have a problem with it. I registered a complaint. It's a personal attack. You're mod brushed it off as "tongue-in-cheek" and made that assumption for Abbas and me. That permits a culture of insult. Again, Abbas was not even in the room and it happens all the time. We are supposed to be celebrating our team, not celebrating the mockery of our peers. It doesn't inspire celebratory feelings in me to watch someone get picked on. That's not being a moral authority that's just basic human decency.

                  Who did I see break the rules?

                  "Herding cats". Yeah, that's offensive. I'm not a cat, I am a human being. So is everyone else in the forum. We deserve to be treated as such. That's the whole point dude! Smh.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    lewro wrote: View Post
                    Who did I see break the rules?
                    You broke the forum rule about moderating fellow posters. You were given multiple reminders and then warnings, but continued your attempts to peer-moderate, and also publically argued with a Moderator about forum rules.

                    Any other issues not directly related to the exchange in question will be dealt with accordingly, using established forum procedures, including post reporting (any member can click the triangular "!" button to report an inappropriate post) and private messages to any/all Admins/Mods.

                    Once again, if you have an issue related to the infraction or another post(s)/member(s), please use the PM function to contact any/all Admins/Mods. Public posting like what you've done in this thread is not the appropriate way to discuss the issues you've raised, and I hope this can act as a reminder to you and everybody else about proper forum procedures.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      This is done being talked about. Move on and if you aren't happy with the forum there are plenty more options via the interweb.

                      Comment

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