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Thread: Everything VanVleet

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    Raptors Republic Superstar The Claw Reborn's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    An odd time to be trumpeting FVV's defense after he just got torched by the best tanking backcourt in basketball.

    Again, the issue is not that Fred can be a replacement level backup PG (he can, and is), the problem is Nurse trying to turn him into a starting PG or a starting SG, when you have other choices for defense, like Powell & Wright, or inserting OG at SF with Kawhi guarding the opposition backcourt, which ultimately needed to happen to save the Hawks game. We didn't need a fourth ball-handler, with Kyle, Kawhi and Pascal all active. That probably messed with the chemistry, actually.

    Again, it's probably a moot point because Masai paid FVV and we're going to ride him, so that's that, but Freddy seems like he is being protected by surrounding him with players that will hide his weaknesses. You surround Wright with Lowry, Kawhi, Pascal, etc... and his stats will dramatically improve.
    Watching him got scorched by the guards of the Pistons (even Jose ffs Calderon), Pelicans, BKN, DJA of Orl and last night...its quiet depressing. So maybe people’s memories are failing them. His defense is a tad overrated

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
    Watching him got scorched by the guards of the Pistons (even Jose ffs Calderon), Pelicans, BKN, DJA of Orl and last night...its quiet depressing. So maybe people’s memories are failing them. His defense is a tad overrated
    Everyone sees the game differently....

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I don't see Fred being moved. Delon has not been that good this year either and we just dropped Brown. Kyle is still vulnerable with this back issues.. and with Kyle just playing like Kyle plays.... we need Fred.

    We have so many perimeter weapons though. It's on Nurse to not play Fred when he doesn't have to. OG or Norm could have started for Green last night for example. When the opposing guards are feasting on us all night you need to come back with a different plan.

    Last night Lin and Young had 39 points. Lin himself went 8-10 and had 20 points and 9 assists.
    I too don't think Fred is going anywhere..

    As for Trae Young... I am as cool to him as folks are here expressing their views on FVV. He is playing for a pretty poor team. Collins is going to be a stud for them... Young... well.. he turns it over a lot.. 4 times a game on average .. SOme of that is the guys he plays with .. some is him being a rookie but whatever the reasons... the ball gets turned over a lot. He doesn't shoot very well.. under 30% from 4 and under 40% from the field. He is pretty slight... He is listed at 6 2 and 180.. but Serena Williams is listed at 160. Gotta wait to year 3 to render some judgement. But off early returns someone in Atlanta needs to be put in a dunk tank for the rest of their lives for passing on Donic.

    Jeremy Lin is the consumate journeyman... the Asian DJ Augustine. This must be his 6 or 7th team. He is as likely to have a 4 for 12 game as he is to have one like last night. My view only but you would be hard pressed to find a GM who would trade FVV for Lin and his matador defense straight up unless Lin came with a material draft pick taped to his tukis.
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jan 9th, 2019 at 03:13 PM.

  4. #424
    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    An odd time to be trumpeting FVV's defense after he just got torched by the best tanking backcourt in basketball.

    Again, the issue is not that Fred can be a replacement level backup PG (he can, and is), the problem is Nurse trying to turn him into a starting PG or a starting SG, when you have other choices for defense, like Powell & Wright, or inserting OG at SF with Kawhi guarding the opposition backcourt, which ultimately needed to happen to save the Hawks game. We didn't need a fourth ball-handler, with Kyle, Kawhi and Pascal all active. That probably messed with the chemistry, actually.

    Again, it's probably a moot point because Masai paid FVV and we're going to ride him, so that's that, but Freddy seems like he is being protected by surrounding him with players that will hide his weaknesses. You surround Wright with Lowry, Kawhi, Pascal, etc... and his stats will dramatically improve.
    As I talked about initially Fred is not a starting PG for a contending team. However for squads like the Pistons .. Suns... the Knicks...da Bulls and the Magic (despite the long shadow cast by DJ Augustine) he is an upgrade to what they have.

    He is not in the same tier as Lowry is but he is skilled enough and as important .. he is mentally tough enough to start for a stretch on a contending team like the Raps and not look out of depth before settling back into his role as a very dependable backup lead guard who doesn't turn the ball over.

    As for what Nurse is doing.. .. . he has this group getting a change of scenery as the lead sled dog... everyone else in the East is staring up at the Raps ass.

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    Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    As I talked about initially Fred is not a starting PG for a contending team. However for squads like the Pistons .. Suns... the Knicks...da Bulls and the Magic (despite the long shadow cast by DJ Augustine) he is an upgrade to what they have.

    He is not in the same tier as Lowry is but he is skilled enough and as important .. he is mentally tough enough to start for a stretch on a contending team like the Raps and not look out of depth before settling back into his role as a very dependable backup lead guard who doesn't turn the ball over.

    As for what Nurse is doing.. .. . he has this group getting a change of scenery as the lead sled dog... everyone else in the East is staring up at the Raps ass.
    Well, we're going in circles Demo, but the the few points I'd make are:

    (1) Based on how inconsistent he's been this year, none of those teams would even take a sniff of FVV now
    (2) the Raps have enough talent that there are many replacement-level point guards who could do equal or better in the starting lineup, when Lowry's out.
    (3) He hasn't been dependable in the backup role this year - at all. You're having fond memories of last year's fairytale Bench Mob, which is ancient history. But I agree, FVV should be able to handle the replacement level backup PG job, if Nurse cuts his role card in at least half, if not thirds. Stabilizing the bench would help this team a lot.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm still rooting for Freddy. I bought FVV stock last December, but I cashed out in the off-season. I would love to have a good reason to buy again.

  6. #426
    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Well, we're going in circles Demo, but the the few points I'd make are:

    (1) Based on how inconsistent he's been this year, none of those teams would even take a sniff of FVV now
    (2) the Raps have enough talent that there are many replacement-level point guards who could do equal or better in the starting lineup, when Lowry's out.
    (3) He hasn't been dependable in the backup role this year - at all. You're having fond memories of last year's fairytale Bench Mob, which is ancient history. But I agree, FVV should be able to handle the replacement level backup PG job, if Nurse cuts his role card in at least half, if not thirds. Stabilizing the bench would help this team a lot.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm still rooting for Freddy. I bought FVV stock last December, but I cashed out in the off-season. I would love to have a good reason to buy again.
    Were going in circles because your chasing your tail.

    FVV finished 3rd in last years 6th man of the year award.....None of the names you put forward made the grade... Shabbaz Napier.. cmom man.

    Think that Freddy may have shaken off the turf toe and the banged up chest/shoulder and with a break in the scheudle and some rest... he will return to form

    I missed the game against the Bucks last week... how'd he do ?
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jan 9th, 2019 at 04:12 PM.

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    Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    Were going in circles because your chasing your tail.

    FVV finished 3rd in last years 6th man of the year award.....None of the names you put forward made the grade... Shabbaz Napier.. cmom man.
    And that's the point: FVV has regressed to below Shabazz Napier level of impact this year. Ball (and PIPM) don't lie. You keep clinging hopefully to last year, which is the true tail-chasing going on here.

    The question, vis-a-vis last year, is if the 6MOTY nomination was due to: FVV himself, the system/usage, or a liberal sprinkling of Spicy P? Or has the league caught on to defending FVV? He almost never finishes at the rim, when last year I clearly remember him getting better at that as the season wore on.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    And that's the point: FVV has regressed to below Shabazz Napier level of impact this year. Ball (and PIPM) don't lie. You keep clinging hopefully to last year, which is the true tail-chasing going on here.

    The question, vis-a-vis last year, is if the 6MOTY nomination was due to: FVV himself, the system/usage, or a liberal sprinkling of Spicy P? Or has the league caught on to defending FVV? He almost never finishes at the rim, when last year I clearly remember him getting better at that as the season wore on.
    Just like you and I don't get stupid overnight... Neither has Fred lost the skills and the mental and physical toughness and the on court smarts that made him a finalist for third . make that 6th man of the year.
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jan 9th, 2019 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Edit.. See post 429 in this thread

  9. #429
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    Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    Just like you and I don't get stupid overnight... Neither has Fred lost the skills and the mental and physical toughness and the on court smarts that made him a finalist for third man of the year.
    But opposing team do get smarter at defending breakout players the following year - hence the age-old term... sophomore jinx. And yes, Fred has lost the "P" skills that made him finalist for third ......... ? Wait, did you just get stupid in-between posts? j/k. lol.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    But opposing team do get smarter at defending breakout players the following year - hence the age-old term... sophomore jinx. And yes, Fred has lost the "P" skills that made him finalist for third ......... ? Wait, did you just get stupid in-between posts? j/k. lol.
    yeah.. i was thinking that he had finished 3rd in the voting and it stuck for the third man of the year award.... Maybe the 6th man can be renamed the Kardashian award as they generally go through 6 players a year ....

    but we digress

    Love you like a brother but your dead ass wrong on FVV being interchangeable with Shabbaz Napier or DJ Augustine or Jeremy Lin. He is light years better.

    Did you catch the Milwuakee game.. .I missed it... How did a bereft of skills Freddy do ?
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jan 9th, 2019 at 05:02 PM.

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    Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    yeah.. i was thinking that he had finished 3rd in the voting and it stuck for the third man of the year award.... Maybe the 6th man can be renamed the Kardashian award as they generally go through 6 players a year ....

    but we digress

    Love you like a brother but your dead ass wrong on FVV being interchangeable with Shabbaz Napier or DJ Augustine or Jeremy Lin. He is light years better.

    Did you catch the Milwuakee game.. .I missed it... How did a bereft of skills Freddy do ?
    Well, I've got not problem admitting I've been dead-ass wrong on player evaluation before (see: Siakam, Pascal), and hungry for more crow on FVV. Not a hater, but I honestly don't know what to make of FVV - good or bad. I'm flip-flopping harder than Nikola Jokic dribbling down the lane.

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    Quote Fury wrote: View Post
    D-League bound.
    ughh
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Well, I've got not problem admitting I've been dead-ass wrong on player evaluation before (see: Siakam, Pascal), and hungry for more crow on FVV. Not a hater, but I honestly don't know what to make of FVV - good or bad. I'm flip-flopping harder than Nikola Jokic dribbling down the lane.
    Which tells me your married or in a long term relationship and have survived so far....

    I like Fred for what can't be quantified with analytics...

    With purpose and resolve he found his way to the show as an undrafted free agent.

    He has the ear of one of the prickliest players in the NBA in Kyle Lowry who sees something in him and spends time with him to make him better. Its a mentor situation. With Wright.. Lowry has no time. The NBA is funny that way.

    The organization as a whole is committed to him. They gave him a good bridge deal to prove himself to be worthy of more and he has taken up challenge. Now that he shaken off those effing nagging injuries watch for Fred to take some more strides.

    The Raps are as media conscious an organization as they come and this is one of the guys they trot out to post game interviews after wins and some pretty bad losses. Why ? Because he is as composed and articulate as they come and he is all of 24.. This stuff translates to the floor and the room. He has leadership qualities.

    They went deeper into the tax to keep him... They front office likes what they see. So does the rest of the league...
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jan 9th, 2019 at 05:39 PM.

  14. #434
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    It's pretty clear that the team is force-feeding FVV's development to replace Lowry as soon as possible.

    The Raptors have big expectations for his development going forward.

    “I think all those guys, guys like in Fred’s situation, there’s kind of these levels. You’re an NBA player, you’re a rotational player, you’re a backup, you’re a starter. Are you good enough to be a starter in this league for five, six, seven years? I think that’s what Fred’s mindset’s gotta be, can he be a guy that can start in this league, do it every night and play consistently,” coach Nick Nurse said before Lowry returned against the Indiana Pacers. “The guys that are putting up 25 points a night in that elite air, its unbelievable that they can do that. Every night and fly and play and fly and play and double header they just keeping putting 25 points up and that’s the rare air those guys get into. I think that’s a level Fred has to aspire to and he is aspiring to and I think he certainly is good enough to be a starter in this league. He runs the team, he defends, he shoots it, he’s got some uncanny abilities, he’s the late shot clock maker, he’s a big shot maker, he’s a late game shot maker. Those things are special things.”

    Certainly, he isn’t there yet. He has struggled throughout the season to handle in the pick-and-roll, though that has improved recently, in fits and starts. To be fair, Van Vleet was recently smothered by the Boston Celtics’ length. However, Van Vleet is at his best when surrounded by better players, not when he’s the focal point of the bench offence
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer MixxAOR's Avatar
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    Well that's how it goes for some players. Coaches decide that this guy is worth developing and others can figure it out on their own. Casey-Derozan, Nurse-FVV I guess.
    First Team All Nonsense

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    It's pretty clear that the team is force-feeding FVV's development to replace Lowry as soon as possible.
    Well, next year will be his real third season so you'd expect to see a big jump. If not, then maybe they need to consider other options but, yeah, the organization is obviously invested in him.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Well, next year will be his real third season so you'd expect to see a big jump. If not, then maybe they need to consider other options but, yeah, the organization is obviously invested in him.
    It's okay to "hope" for big jump, but not to expect it. He'll be 26 next year, so he's not exactly a young developing player. And PGs usually develop quicker than bigs. The dip we're seeing this year is related both to his role and how teams are defending him. They're taking away the easy pass and daring him to drive to the rim, or make a short mid-range floater, or take a long mid-range jumper. He hasn't figured that out yet and he can't be a starting PG if he doesn't.
    Last edited by golden; Fri Jan 18th, 2019 at 02:36 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar The Claw Reborn's Avatar
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    Quote MixxAOR wrote: View Post
    Well that's how it goes for some players. Coaches decide that this guy is worth developing and others can figure it out on their own. Casey-Derozan, Nurse-FVV I guess.
    The former, how did it turn out?

    Hopefully Ujiri realizes some coaches and players have certain ceilings.

    Some just dont have the IT to be the next Pop or the next Harden.

    In this present case, he may not even reach the status of Lowry

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    Quote The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
    The former, how did it turn out?

    Hopefully Ujiri realizes some coaches and players have certain ceilings.

    Some just dont have the IT to be the next Pop or the next Harden.

    In this present case, he may not even reach the status of Lowry
    How did it turn out?

    Well he went from a raw dunker and slasher to a fucking nba star max money guy who can lead teams to the playoffs, and became good enough that he was the piece that led the spurs to pick us to win the Leonard sweepstakes.

    I'd say it turned out pretty damn well
    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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  21. #440
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    How did it turn out?

    Well he went from a raw dunker and slasher to a fucking nba star max money guy who can lead teams to the playoffs, and became good enough that he was the piece that led the spurs to pick us to win the Leonard sweepstakes.

    I'd say it turned out pretty damn well
    Lol

    Nah, its an assessment (sometimes very subjective) of an executive if he wants to give max money to a player, sometimes just trying to convince that player and coach to stay but knowing that there are still more holes to fill.

    And as far as how it turned out, both former individuals gave you that empty feeling longing for something more when its all said and done.

    However, we digress because the thread is about this back up Point Guard they are trying to groom and be the understudy of the greatest Raptor PG of all time yet its clear as day that the limitations are so obvious

    Why its a burden for you that someone is critical of this player is laughable

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