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Thread: Everything VanVleet

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer DanH's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Some nice "off-ball" PG work by Freddy yesterday....



    I'm getting ready to place a bet on Steady Freddy.

    https://www.thescore.com/news/1690300
    Fred is really benefiting from having a pick and pop big. Lets him do a decent job of creating offence in spite of his inability to run a real PnR. The pass to the short roll or pop is much easier, and the open paint is getting him some passing lanes to the wing. Really nice to see him gaining confidence in those situations. Helps that the team isn't just giving him the ball and asking him to be primary creator anymore - he's getting the ball a lot after movement, even when setting up for a PnP with Serge, and getting to operate against an already moving defence. Much more in line with how he should be used, and he's getting a lot more off ball catch and shoot looks as well, which is helping his efficiency come back up (his efficiency as the ball handler is still pretty meh, but so long as the easier passes are there his spot as secondary creator is viable).

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    Raptors Republic All-Star GOLDBLUM's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Would be interesting, and likely the story of the rest of the season, to know if Nick is the one reining them in or whether they've taken it upon themselves. The comments from Fred, Danny Green, and Kawhi after the Spurs game all seemed to suggest that even some of the players were beginning to feel like there was too much freedom and that they needed more discipline. That's in contrast to Nick's constant comments that things will come together as time goes by and he's still dedicated to allowing as much freedom as possible...

    Either way, I agree that FVV is a capable PG and can handle that role on this team. Healthy Lowry is clearly better at this point in their respective careers, but Fred is fine running the offense. Has all the skills and IQ required.
    Maybe that was Nick’s master plan... ....let them be free until they recognize and tire of the issues and figure out what changes they need to make for themselves. Now the players can have confidence and ownership in their turnaround. Probably unlikely Nick devised that in such a way but then again, the biggest problem in the playoffs (other than Lebron) has easily been confidence. Probably helpful to have faced adversity as they have the last several weeks and to have been forced to sink or swim and find their way out.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star GOLDBLUM's Avatar
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    OH SNAP, I accidentally liked your post Dan and meant to like Jimmie’s. So please reset your ticker to about 897 likes from me rather than 898 or thereabouts. ... I’m sorry to do this to you. I know how much of a driving force my validation is in all the work you do around here.

    (All that said, I liked your post too.)

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    Raptors Republic Veteran slaw's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I never took my money off him. I think the hate has been building to the point where I'm at a little uncomfortable with him becoming the whipping boy around here.
    I think people forget it's only really his second season playing full-time and that he's the back-up point guard. I knew things had gone off the rails when I started reading about JJ Barea and Jeremy Lin....

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I think people forget it's only really his second season playing full-time and that he's the back-up point guard. I knew things had gone off the rails when I started reading about JJ Barea and Jeremy Lin....
    And thats it !

    In aggregate its his second season.....His first year was a "cup of coffee" introduction. He got into 35ish games in his first year but he played less 300 minutes...and guessing or remembering a lot those mins were in 4th quarter garbage time for the guy likely tiered as your 4th best ball handler.

    On a contending team Fred isnt a starting PG. Yet. But he is close enough that on other teams he would be a starter in the NBA. On teams like Phoenix, Detroit, Orlando, and Chicago Fred would be an upgrade to their starting PGs.

    So when Kyle went down it wasn't like a Come to Jesus Moment because Fred could and would start and wouldn't look like a beer league goalie playing in the NHL against Tampa Bay. The team played well for him.. Could it have been better ? It can always be better but its not like they got crushed or anything and they were playing and beating some really good teams.

    We got a deal with this guy for 9M per for two years. Its a bridge deal to be sure because if he keeps improving on his next deal Freddy is going to get a some term and some zeros. He will be 26. Good for him.

    Freddy doesn't turn it over which is why Nurse plays him in winning time. He has like a 4 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. PFG. His shot has come back in the last few games. Yep he still makes some ill advised runs to the basket at times.. but hey..so does Kyle.

    Freddy will be staying around for a while.

    Gotta like guys who believe in themselves and make good on it.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar The Claw Reborn's Avatar
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    Funny that a few will always overrate mediocrity, glorifying players with so low ceiling.

    Stop the madness. We can get a player who can consistently shoot the three, taller who can defend athletic PGs for what Fred the midget is getting as an annual salary.

    I like Fred but Ujiri should not too be attached, GMs get fired for that

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
    Funny that a few will always overrate mediocrity, glorifying players with so low ceiling.

    Stop the madness. We can get a player who can consistently shoot the three, taller who can defend athletic PGs for what Fred the midget is getting as an annual salary.

    I like Fred but Ujiri should not too be attached, GMs get fired for that
    A few still think well of you ...

    Yes.. of course we can... They grow on trees....Name off a few people who hit that spot on the venn diagram and are only 24.
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jan 9th, 2019 at 10:21 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar The Claw Reborn's Avatar
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    Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    A few still think well of you ...

    Yes.. of course we can... They grow on trees....Name off a few people who hit that spot on the venn diagram and are only 24.


    Listen, do you honestly believe that the 8 million that he is getting yearly cannot net us another player who is taller, can guard more athletic PGs and has a decent 3 point shooting percentage?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post


    Listen, do you honestly believe that the 8 million that he is getting yearly cannot net us another player who is taller, can guard more athletic PGs and has a decent 3 point shooting percentage?
    Well, looks like you've got your Claw sunk into a new victim..

    8 million is pittance. Fred is a smart heady player and unfortunately for this team one of the best shooters we got. Arguably our best ball handler and a tenacious defender.

    I know we have to find SOMEBODY...Miles is out now, Ibakas playing good...so Fred gets it...but I do understand why Nurse plays him. Especially when Green is not there. It's IQ, and reliability.
    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post


    Listen, do you honestly believe that the 8 million that he is getting yearly cannot net us another player who is taller, can guard more athletic PGs and has a decent 3 point shooting percentage?
    In a decisive word... No

    .
    Here are some guys in the 8 to 9M per annum range....

    Jerryd Bayless...... Lou (All O.. No D) Williams ...Our best friend Cory Joseph...Darren Collison and JJ Barea (both shorter than Freddy and who play less D) and the always available Micheal Carter Williams...

    The floor is yours ....
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jan 9th, 2019 at 11:36 AM.

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    Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    In a decisive word... No

    .
    Here are some guys in the 8 to 9M per annum range....

    Jerryd Bayless...... Lou (All O.. No D) Williams ...Our best friend Cory Joseph...Darren Collison and JJ Barea (both shorter than Freddy and who play less D) and the always available Micheal Carter Williams...

    The floor is yours ....
    Just off the top of my head: Quinn Cook, Landry Shamet, Derrick Rose or any random guard named DJ (e.g. White or Augustin). And CoJo is playing great this year, if you hadn't checked. No longer being Casey'd.

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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Well, looks like you've got your Claw sunk into a new victim..

    8 million is pittance. Fred is a smart heady player and unfortunately for this team one of the best shooters we got. Arguably our best ball handler and a tenacious defender.

    I know we have to find SOMEBODY...Miles is out now, Ibakas playing good...so Fred gets it...but I do understand why Nurse plays him. Especially when Green is not there. It's IQ, and reliability.
    I am sure you have your own biases, it would be hypocritical to not have one as a sports fan. I actually like Fred because of his grit and perseverance. But sometimes those assets are not enough to be a major contributor to a “contending” team. I have no doubt that he can be a great addition to a “developing” team. I question his BBIQ, e.g. his understanding that driving down the lane with a taller player twice his size is a good example of lack of awareness.

    His salary is a good filler to package with another player in addressing the pressing need of this team which is 3 point shooting and rebounds. I am more comfortable having Wright and Powell as back ups for Lowry because of their height and athleticism.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar The Claw Reborn's Avatar
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    Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    In a decisive word... No

    .
    Here are some guys in the 8 to 9M per annum range....

    Jerryd Bayless...... Lou (All O.. No D) Williams ...Our best friend Cory Joseph...Darren Collison and JJ Barea (both shorter than Freddy and who play less D) and the always available Micheal Carter Williams...

    The floor is yours ....
    I thought his subtraction would provide opportunities for both Wright and Norm. Then as I mentioned in my previous post, his salary can be a big add-on to acquire someone who can fill the void of a rebounder/ reliable 3 point shooter

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Demographic Shift's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Just off the top of my head: Quinn Cook, Landry Shamet, Derrick Rose or any random guard named DJ (e.g. White or Augustin). And CoJo is playing great this year, if you hadn't checked. No longer being Casey'd.
    A nice mix of guys on rookie deals (Shameet/White) ... and a few retreads in their 30's

    CoJo is CoJo.... he dribbled the air out of the ball and dribbled his way out of town for it.... Ujiri made a choice as well ....Corey or Fred..he went with VV.

    Derrick Rose... an interesting choice... a 30 year old with no ACL's who with his stable personal life might not check the boxes Ujiri looks for.

    DJ Augustine...

    Cook would be a good compare....
    8 pts a game... 2 boards.. 2 helpers... does shoot a very healthy 44% from 3. He turns it over once a game on average and would have an assist to turnover ratio of 1 to 1. He is 2 inches taller and 20 pounds lighter than Fred.

    Fred is
    10 pts a game... 3 boards.. 5 helpers .. shoots 36% from 3. Turns it over once a game for an assist to turnover ratio of 5 to 1. Its an observation but VV plays waaaaaaay better defense than Cook.
    He is shorter than Cook but is physically bigger.

    So.. even wheeling fred against the nba field.. you got a personal choice pickem with one guy....

    So the overall point here is that finding a taller.. younger... better defender...better shooter from 3. who isn't a 1st round pick on a team friendly rookie deal is not like going out for milk at Loblaws...
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jan 9th, 2019 at 12:32 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    This board has a Terrance Jones syndrome. We think guys are good because they put up seemingly decent stats. But we never look in depth about how often they get totally lost on the defensive end, or how many poor offensive decisions they make.
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer DanH's Avatar
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    Guys, FVV is being misused seemingly to find the limits of his upside, is struggling in that role, and is STILL grading out as a top 20-25 PG when looking at impact stats.

    He provides exactly what this team needs (decent defence at point and in help, off ball shooting and movement) from that spot. They are just using him wrong right now.

    Putting another player in the spot is a bad solution, because we don't know whether a) that player would be used correctly considering FVV is not right now, and b) that player pretty definitively wouldn't have the upside Fred does in terms of impact if you assume both players would eventually be used correctly.

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    Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    A nice mix of guys on rookie deals (Shameet/White) ... and a few retreads in their 30's

    CoJo is CoJo.... he dribbled the air out of the ball and dribbled his way out of town for it.... Ujiri made a choice as well ....Corey or Fred..he went with VV.

    Derrick Rose... an interesting choice... a 30 year old with no ACL's who with his stable personal life might not check the boxes Ujiri looks for.

    DJ Augustine...

    Cook would be a good compare....
    8 pts a game... 2 boards.. 2 helpers... does shoot a very healthy 44% from 3. He turns it over once a game on average and would have an assist to turnover ratio of 1 to 1. He is 2 inches taller and 20 pounds lighter than Fred.

    Fred is
    10 pts a game... 3 boards.. 5 helpers .. shoots 36% from 3. Turns it over once a game for an assist to turnover ratio of 5 to 1. Its an observation but VV plays waaaaaaay better defense than Cook.
    He is shorter than Cook but is physically bigger.

    So.. even wheeling fred against the nba field.. you got a personal choice pickem with one guy....

    So the overall point here is that finding a taller.. younger... better defender...better shooter from 3. who isn't a 1st round pick on a team friendly rookie deal is not like going out for milk at Loblaws...
    An odd time to be trumpeting FVV's defense after he just got torched by the best tanking backcourt in basketball.

    Again, the issue is not that Fred can be a replacement level backup PG (he can, and is), the problem is Nurse trying to turn him into a starting PG or a starting SG, when you have other choices for defense, like Powell & Wright, or inserting OG at SF with Kawhi guarding the opposition backcourt, which ultimately needed to happen to save the Hawks game. We didn't need a fourth ball-handler, with Kyle, Kawhi and Pascal all active. That probably messed with the chemistry, actually.

    Again, it's probably a moot point because Masai paid FVV and we're going to ride him, so that's that, but Freddy seems like he is being protected by surrounding him with players that will hide his weaknesses. You surround Wright with Lowry, Kawhi, Pascal, etc... and his stats will dramatically improve.

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    Quote The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
    I thought his subtraction would provide opportunities for both Wright and Norm. Then as I mentioned in my previous post, his salary can be a big add-on to acquire someone who can fill the void of a rebounder/ reliable 3 point shooter
    OK.. if thats what you think... but what you said was that finding an upgrade to Fred would be as easy as picking up a bag of milk at Loblaws... Its not.

    No one is against upgrading personnel when the opportunity presents itself.
    Of course you can upgrade on FVV..
    Its just that the cost to do it for a measureable material gain in production and team fit is a very very difficult task.

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    Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    OK.. if thats what you think... but what you said was that finding an upgrade to Fred would be as easy as picking up a bag of milk at Loblaws... Its not.

    No one is against upgrading personnel when the opportunity presents itself.
    Of course you can upgrade on FVV..
    Its just that the cost to do it for a measureable material gain in production and team fit is a very very difficult task.
    But this is not Babcock of No Frills, we are relying on the man with a magic wand Ujiri.

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    I don't see Fred being moved. Delon has not been that good this year either and we just dropped Brown. Kyle is still vulnerable with this back issues.. and with Kyle just playing like Kyle plays.... we need Fred.

    We have so many perimeter weapons though. It's on Nurse to not play Fred when he doesn't have to. OG or Norm could have started for Green last night for example. When the opposing guards are feasting on us all night you need to come back with a different plan.

    Last night Lin and Young had 39 points. Lin himself went 8-10 and had 20 points and 9 assists.

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