Who is the Most Overrated Team in the East ..aka.. Why Boston Sux.

[MixxAOR]

And there was a bunch of discussions. Some say we can retool he says his opinion on that. Some said we can't trade Lowry and Ibaka. He has his own opinion on that. Some say it was a coaching issue he is saying coaching issue is not the only issue. Leave the man alone.

[Other Scott]

Re-up Lowry next year? That would be surprising since he'd still be on his contract. The year after? I suppose anything's possible, but unless he's signing for cheap, I don't see the interest from the team.

The window is very clear. Unless the team exhibits significant growth next season (which I find unlikely unless they do manage to leverage DeRozan+ into the right kind of high end talent), I don't see why anyone would be wanting the core, especially the aging members of the core, to be brought forward.

I don't think significant growth is impossible. There's a lot of young players on this team who have plenty of potential to improve. If even a couple of Siakam developing his shot and passing vision, Van Vleet continuing to improve his shot, Delon playing with more aggression, Poeltl getting stronger in the post and learning not to foul on defense, OG improving his ball handling to the point where the offense can run around him instead of him being the guy standing in the corner, etc - then I think that yes, this team can show significant improvement for next year, and really take away the necessity to have to tear it all down again.

It's why I'm a little hesitant to trade Demar for a downgrade unless the deal is really good.

[NoPropsneeded]

It delays it by a full year, that is meaningful. And that's assuming we even tank after that.

I can see the scenario where we go for it again, take 1 game off whatever team LeBron is on. Call that "progress" just like you spun this year's sweep as progress... and run it back again.

I'm tired of it. This team isn't capable of winning the title, which in and of itself isn't a reason to tank, but it is when your core players have reached their ceilings or are declining and your prospects are nothing to go crazy about.

And quite frankly idgaf what you're trying to explain, your explanations sound smart at the time and end up wrong. Like how you said in this very thread that Boston would be lucky to win 50 and wouldn't win a single playoff round. Or how you said this team would be able to take the fight to Cleveland and got swept again.

Then why the fuck are you on this forum? We're here to read and have discussions. If you don't want to do that you can go argue with other casuals in youtube comments. I'd be surprised if you're over the age of 16, I use to be just like you when I joined this forum. I use to get so upset over losses and make up all these crazy blow it up scenarios. We get that you want the team to succeed but you need to calm down, none of us really know what's going on up there in the front office. MU will make the moves necessary our petty arguments don't mean shit remember that lol

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Then why the fuck are you on this forum? We're here to read and have discussions. If you don't want to do that you can go argue with other casuals in youtube comments. I'd be surprised if you're over the age of 16, I use to be just like you when I joined this forum. I use to get so upset over losses and make up all these crazy blow it up scenarios. We get that you want the team to succeed but you need to calm down, none of us really know what's going on up there in the front office. MU will make the moves necessary our petty arguments don't mean shit remember that lol

Reported.

[Mindlessness]

And there was a bunch of discussions. Some say we can retool he says his opinion on that. Some said we can't trade Lowry and Ibaka. He has his own opinion on that. Some say it was a coaching issue he is saying coaching issue is not the only issue. Leave the man alone.

I was mostly responding to his "quite frankly idgaf what you're trying to explain." But I'll let be, the moderators can judge whether these comments here are of any use, delete them if you wish.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I was mostly responding to his "quite frankly idgaf what you're trying to explain." But I'll let be, the moderators can judge whether these comments here are of any use, delete them if you wish.

I said that only because of the snark/condescension of his previous comment. Didn't just come from nowhere:

Re-up Lowry next year? That would be surprising since he'd still be on his contract. The year after? I suppose anything's possible, but unless he's signing for cheap, I don't see the interest from the team.

The window is very clear. Unless the team exhibits significant growth next season (which I find unlikely unless they do manage to leverage DeRozan+ into the right kind of high end talent), I don't see why anyone would be wanting the core, especially the aging members of the core, to be brought forward.

What have I done to make you suggest I am anti-rebuild? I sometimes forget you have only been around for like a year.

I've been trying to explain to you that making moves now does not in any meaningful way expedite the tank, and waiting for the right trades for the core as they progress down the standings does not in any meaningful way delay the tank.

Like don't talk to me like I'm a child. I know what your argument is. I don't agree, so idgaf if you're "trying to explain". I think it's wrong so I'll make my counter-points. It's not me not understanding, it's me disagreeing.

[DanH]

I said that only because of the snark/condescension of his previous comment. Didn't just come from nowhere:



Like don't talk to me like I'm a child. I know what your argument is. I don't agree, so idgaf if you're "trying to explain". I think it's wrong so I'll make my counter-points. It's not me not understanding, it's me disagreeing.

Here's the thing - I keep looking for your counterpoints, and I don't see any. You just say "I don't want to delay a tank" when I've been constant in suggesting that I'm not looking to delay the tank, the premise being that you simply can't go from a ~60 win team to a true bottom dweller in one year by making trades that make sense long term. Meaning that taking the time to properly dismantle the core over a full season plus (starting now, extending into next summer/the following season) won't impact the time it takes to get to the bottom. But every time I say that, all I get is "I don't want to delay a tank."

[Mindlessness]

I said that only because of the snark/condescension of his previous comment. Didn't just come from nowhere:


Like don't talk to me like I'm a child. I know what your argument is. I don't agree, so idgaf if you're "trying to explain". I think it's wrong so I'll make my counter-points. It's not me not understanding, it's me disagreeing.

Nothing in what you've highlighted in Dan's post suggests condescension to me, you seem to be reading something into his response. What in that sentence gives off the tone of condescension?

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Here's the thing - I keep looking for your counterpoints, and I don't see any. You just say "I don't want to delay a tank" when I've been constant in suggesting that I'm not looking to delay the tank, the premise being that you simply can't go from a ~60 win team to a true bottom dweller in one year by making trades that make sense long term. Meaning that taking the time to properly dismantle the core over a full season plus (starting now, extending into next summer/the following season) won't impact the time it takes to get to the bottom. But every time I say that, all I get is "I don't want to delay a tank."

I'm getting tired of you saying this every time we get into a debate. Just because you don't agree with my counterpoints doesn't mean I'm not making any.

I'm this close to putting you on ignore at this point, and I don't want to because you're an intelligent poster but it's getting tiring the constant condescending tone.

[DanH]

I'm getting tired of you saying this every time we get into a debate. Just because you don't agree with my counterpoints doesn't mean I'm not making any.

I'm this close to putting you on ignore at this point, and I don't want to because you're an intelligent poster but it's getting tiring the constant condescending tone.

OK, well in all honesty, completely open truth here, I missed your counterpoints. I've gone back through your posts but I can't find where you responded to those points.

I'm sorry to be annoying and ask you to repeat yourself, but please do.

If you accept the premise that the team can't into the worst 5 teams in the league immediately, does the team being marginally worse (somewhere in the middle of the pack) really impact their timeline in a rebuild?

If you don't accept that premise, can you explain why?

[Shaolin Fantastic]

OK, well in all honesty, completely open truth here, I missed your counterpoints. I've gone back through your posts but I can't find where you responded to those points.

I'm sorry to be annoying and ask you to repeat yourself, but please do.

If you accept the premise that the team can't into the worst 5 teams in the league immediately, does the team being marginally worse (somewhere in the middle of the pack) really impact their timeline in a rebuild?

If you don't accept that premise, can you explain why?

- We fundamentally agree on the tradeability (not a word) of Lowry/Ibaka. I think in exchange for taking on some bad deals (which is part of why it's more advantageous to start now, so that those deals are gone earlier when we're ready to be good again) we can get picks and prospects for them (moreso Kyle than Serge).

- DeRozan and JV have enough value to return those kind of assets without taking bad deals. JV has shown way more versatility on offense this year with the new 3-ball and passing, and he makes a good salary. DeMar's value as an all-star in his prime is clear to teams looking for someone to market or score for them.

- With these guys shipped out and a coach brought in who's young and knows the deal (i.e. play the young guys, play to develop first, win second), we will not be good. Maybe not last (Orlando would probably be worse, Sac too) but we'd be near the bottom 5 and in position to draft a superstar, as well as armed with a lot of good assets.

- On top of that we get to find out exactly how good Poeltl, Siakam, Wright are with them starting. Playing against benches is fine let's see how they do as starters. That way when it comes time to extend we aren't betting on a few playoff games or potential like Powell, but on tangible, hard evidence.

- I get your point of waiting to trade Ibaka/Lowry when they're expiring but I don't see the value in waiting a year just for a bit of extra trade value (which might not even be the case if they decline further). It just delays knowing the true value of our prospects and you have to re-sign Wright in 2019 without knowing whether he's a starter caliber PG or not. I also don't think a coaching change (especially not to Bud) will help us much in the playoffs. Might get an extra game but we're not going to the finals, this year was our best chance with Boston hurt, Philly too young and Cleveland at their worst. I'd rather just rebuild now.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I'd also add that with the coaching vacancy that makes it even more imperative to decide on a direction for this team now. The coach we'd want to try and make a run isn't necessarily the same guy we'd want for a rebuild.

[DanH]

- We fundamentally agree on the tradeability (not a word) of Lowry/Ibaka. I think in exchange for taking on some bad deals (which is part of why it's more advantageous to start now, so that those deals are gone earlier when we're ready to be good again) we can get picks and prospects for them (moreso Kyle than Serge).

- DeRozan and JV have enough value to return those kind of assets without taking bad deals. JV has shown way more versatility on offense this year with the new 3-ball and passing, and he makes a good salary. DeMar's value as an all-star in his prime is clear to teams looking for someone to market or score for them.

- With these guys shipped out and a coach brought in who's young and knows the deal (i.e. play the young guys, play to develop first, win second), we will not be good. Maybe not last (Orlando would probably be worse, Sac too) but we'd be near the bottom 5 and in position to draft a superstar, as well as armed with a lot of good assets.

- On top of that we get to find out exactly how good Poeltl, Siakam, Wright are with them starting. Playing against benches is fine let's see how they do as starters. That way when it comes time to extend we aren't betting on a few playoff games or potential like Powell, but on tangible, hard evidence.

- I get your point of waiting to trade Ibaka/Lowry when they're expiring but I don't see the value in waiting a year just for a bit of extra trade value (which might not even be the case if they decline further). It just delays knowing the true value of our prospects and you have to re-sign Wright in 2019 without knowing whether he's a starter caliber PG or not. I also don't think a coaching change (especially not to Bud) will help us much in the playoffs. Might get an extra game but we're not going to the finals, this year was our best chance with Boston hurt, Philly too young and Cleveland at their worst. I'd rather just rebuild now.

That's all reasonable and none of it addresses the timeline question. Essentially what your points come down to are an assumption that the team will be really bad on purpose, benching the mediocre players they receive in those deals, and relying on our young core to be worse than they already seem to be (no way we end up in bottom 5 even if we just played our bench).

I think defaulting to "well, the coach will coach to lose on purpose" runs completely counter to how we've seen the team operate, and is a bit of a cheat code argument for being able to get bad quickly. Might as well just not trade anyone and have JV run point and run a system where we only take half court threes. Could be really bad. Won't happen.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

That's all reasonable and none of it addresses the timeline question. Essentially what your points come down to are an assumption that the team will be really bad on purpose, benching the mediocre players they receive in those deals, and relying on our young core to be worse than they already seem to be (no way we end up in bottom 5 even if we just played our bench).

I think defaulting to "well, the coach will coach to lose on purpose" runs completely counter to how we've seen the team operate, and is a bit of a cheat code argument for being able to get bad quickly. Might as well just not trade anyone and have JV run point and run a system where we only take half court threes. Could be really bad. Won't happen.

That's not what I said. I'm talking about the coach playing for development instead of wins. That means stuff like, Wright is having a bad first 2 months of the season, we're gonna keep starting him anyway for 30mpg because we want to see what he can do instead of bringing in someone who might play better than him and help us win.

I don't mean losing on purpose.

[DanH]

That's not what I said. I'm talking about the coach playing for development instead of wins. That means stuff like, Wright is having a bad first 2 months of the season, we're gonna keep starting him anyway for 30mpg because we want to see what he can do instead of bringing in someone who might play better than him and help us win.

I don't mean losing on purpose.

Oh, well then no way they get to bottom 5, not remotely.