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Thread: Groat?

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    Default Groat?

    I was just placing my daily NBA all-star votes and was realizing just how difficult it is for a player to be considered in the "top ten" in the league. In the east the stars aren't that numerous....Derozan is certainly in the top 5. The west is another matter though.

    So I began to wonder if historically Vince Carter and Chris Bosh were "top ten" players and if so for how long. I would assume that they were victims of the same "ignore Canada" bias which exists now, though Carter attained a lot of notoriety with his dunk contest win. Looking at how many times/years they were top 10....or ever in the rarefied air of top 5 might be a reasonable way to decide the GROAT question.....if it matters. But that's what fan sites are all about no?

    I followed NBA closely through the70s, 80s and first half of the 90s but not as much in the late 90s/early 00s (too busy coaching). Steve Nash's early career got me back into it. So I wasn't super aware of VC in his Raptor years.

    So Carter was All second team once, All third team once. Bosh was All Second team once. When one looks at the other players who populated those teams it would be very hard to say that Bosh was top 10 more than that one time and Carter ......maybe twice. I suspect people remember Carter as spectacular but in those years players like Duncan and Garnett and Shaq and Jordan were all NBA year after year. The data would suggest that Carter's peak wasn't really any better than Demar right now.

    Lowry was All third team two years ago and Demar last year. The way it looks now Demar might well make one of the teams again this year....highly unlikely to be All NBA. Given that a lot of the center position picks in the past were not that good (Andrew Bynum!?) a third team pick might actually be a top ten player.

    I personally would have said Kyle was the Raptor's best player for the past 3 years. Demar is clearly on top this year. Given that his performance this year will continue similar to present I think he will arguably be a top 10 player...though hard to compare with a Cousins, Embiid, Davis because of position.

    Someone who has the time and inclination could do this analysis with more detail but my view would be that with consistency and longevity and NOW with the past two years of peak performance....Demar Derozan is the Greatest Raptor of All Time. The non performance based issues....personality, loyalty etc would seem to be in his favour as well. I wasn't a big fan during the infamous playoff loss to Philly when VC went to his graduation ceremony the day of the game. I must say though that it seems a very selfish act which may well have had a big psychological impact on his teammates. I can't see Derozan or Lowry taking that chance.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Scraptor's Avatar
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    Most people who pick Vince will cite him having a higher peak and the effect of his stardom on Toronto/Canadian basketball.

    DeMar has played over 50% more games as a Raptor, has almost a third more points, and this season could rival any of Vince's in terms of peak if he can keep it up. The highest placing Vince had as a Rap in MVP voting was 10th; DeMar could be top 7 or 8 this year.

    Kyle has an argument based on the last four years, and I think he's moving ahead of Vince, but if he fades due to age I don't think he'll be GROAT.

    Overall for me it's DeMar. And I think if he plays at his current level for two more years, you can't even argue that Vince had a better peak.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star TrueTorontoFan's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Most people who pick Vince will cite him having a higher peak and the effect of his stardom on Toronto/Canadian basketball.

    DeMar has played over 50% more games as a Raptor, has almost a third more points, and this season could rival any of Vince's in terms of peak if he can keep it up. The highest placing Vince had as a Rap in MVP voting was 10th; DeMar could be top 7 or 8 this year.

    Kyle has an argument based on the last four years, and I think he's moving ahead of Vince, but if he fades due to age I don't think he'll be GROAT.

    Overall for me it's DeMar. And I think if he plays at his current level for two more years, you can't even argue that Vince had a better peak.
    I agree with it being VC in terms of stardom... and branding.


    That said Demar also gets it for me.

    I think Demar will have surpassed VC if he continues to have the year he has had AND/OR has another solid year.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
    I agree with it being VC in terms of stardom... and branding.


    That said Demar also gets it for me.

    I think Demar will have surpassed VC if he continues to have the year he has had AND/OR has another solid year.
    Stardom and branding should have no effect. Tim Duncan was boring as shit. Allen Iverson was a kids idol on every block in every hood of the usa in the year 2000. One has 5 titles, the other 0. I know which I'd take.
    And suddenly the man, who fancied himself a God, felt a very human chill crawl up his spine.

    #KingDethroned

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer DanH's Avatar
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    If DeMar continues this play into the playoffs, he will basically be a lock all things considered. Vince was awesome in the most memorable playoff series in Raptors history. It's a big reason why his time here is looked upon with great fondness - not only was it our first taste of success, but our only taste of a real NBA star battle, with him and Iverson trading 50 point games and the series going 7, coming down to the last shot (which unfortunately spelled the end of the fairy tale, and contributing to the eventual demise of that era).

    Bosh was really, really good for a really really long time. And he put up some huge games in the playoffs - just didn't win any series. DeMar has the team winning, and is developing the star power. Just needs to show out on the biggest stage. His improvements this year (if they stick, which I'm not stupid enough to bet against anymore) should really help him come playoff time. If this team can knock out the Celtics and push the Cavs in the same way Vince's team pushed Iverson's 76ers... It would become very difficult to argue for anyone over DeMar, when you consider longevity, dedication, star power and success.

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    "It would become very difficult to argue for anyone over DeMar, when you consider longevity, dedication, star power and success."
    And not intentionally screwing over his team, his teammates and the fans if and when he leaves....

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer KeonClark's Avatar
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    Everytime I read this thread title I keep thinking of that little tree trunk thing from guardians of the galaxy

    And suddenly the man, who fancied himself a God, felt a very human chill crawl up his spine.

    #KingDethroned

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    Raptors Republic Veteran slaw's Avatar
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    Quote G__Deane wrote: View Post
    "It would become very difficult to argue for anyone over DeMar, when you consider longevity, dedication, star power and success."
    And not intentionally screwing over his team, his teammates and the fans if and when he leaves....
    As someone who was there for the VC era, including the Philly game 7, I really don't know how anyone can pick him over Derozan.

    I was never a fan of booing Vince but the way he left the team and acted on his way out should not be forgotten and it absolutely tarnishes his time as a Rap. Most talented Raptor of all time? Sure. Most exciting Raptor of all time? Absolutely. Most important Raptor of all time? Almost assuredly. Should be end his career here? Of course.

    Best Raptor of all time? Not sure I'd even put him top 5. And I would never, ever retire his number.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer KeonClark's Avatar
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    I myself always had vince and arguably lowry ahead of DD until recently. Actually only sometime in the last month or so did I decide my personal rankings had derozan as our groot. And I just considered a huge reason why that was and is for me:

    Derozan had previously never been the best player on the team. He'd been the most loyal and had some of the most impressive stats yes, but had always been second fiddle. First sidekick to bosh, then bargs (puke), then rudy, then kyle. How could a guy be the greatest but never the best player on the team?

    Until this year. The team has clearly naturally evolved where now derozan is the batman and kyle is the robin. And I'm more of a kyle guy so no bias here. On possibly the best raptor team ever no less. That to me is what has cemented him as my groot over vince, kyle, and bosh
    And suddenly the man, who fancied himself a God, felt a very human chill crawl up his spine.

    #KingDethroned

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    As someone who was there for the VC era, including the Philly game 7, I really don't know how anyone can pick him over Derozan.

    I was never a fan of booing Vince but the way he left the team and acted on his way out should not be forgotten and it absolutely tarnishes his time as a Rap. Most talented Raptor of all time? Sure. Most exciting Raptor of all time? Absolutely. Most important Raptor of all time? Almost assuredly. Should be end his career here? Of course.

    Best Raptor of all time? Not sure I'd even put him top 5. And I would never, ever retire his number.
    I was with you til the highlighted part. He's ALREADY ended his career here. Let it go.....I hope Masai and co stop trying to cram that down fans throats. It's a new era with the best Raptor team of all time, stop trying to pretend he's more than he is to half the fans. Thanks for the memories, I'm not forgetting how you quit on the team and set it back years. You've had your video tribute nonsense already.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    How could a guy be the greatest but never the best player on the team?

    Until this year. The team has clearly naturally evolved where now derozan is the batman and kyle is the robin. And I'm more of a kyle guy so no bias here. On possibly the best raptor team ever no less. That to me is what has cemented him as my groot over vince, kyle, and bosh
    Nope. I really love the way DeRozan is playing this year, but Kyle is still the best player on this team by a wide margin.

    https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/teams/...=wins_produced

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    Raptors Republic All-Star LJ2's Avatar
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    DeMar is the groat due to longevity.

    VC, in the time he was here far exceeded what DeMar was able to accomplish, imo. Keep in mind he did this without the cast DD has, and during a time of Raptor ball when you could pass for a coach by calling an isolation at the top of the 3 pt line, on every damn play. And quite frankly during a better era of competitive basketball.

    Love DeMar, but lets not forget how awful the level of competition has been, in the East and this season especially. He'd have been eaten alive as the sole option on offence in place of VC, on those rosters back then.

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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Nope. I really love the way DeRozan is playing this year, but Kyle is still the best player on this team by a wide margin.

    https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/teams/...=wins_produced
    Sure advanced metrics (ant this is yet another Box-score derivative one - like PER) love Kyle and rightfully so - he is smart, savvy veteran making winning plays, but would he be able to have such offensive impact without high volume threat like DeMar? They also seem to overvalue his defence, while really showing big negatives for DeMar - of course DeRozan is not positive on that end, but my guess his numbers are really drown down by playing quite a lot of minute qualified as SF and his expected rebounding for this position is low (which even for SG aren't high) - this is more for RPM than WINS.

    This particular catch it all metric seems to produce kind of weird result: take a look at 96/97 (69-13) Bulls and try to make top 3 and then see what WINS show.

    We don't have (yet) ability to accurately simulate how the team would look without DeMar or Kyle, but closest thing to that is Charlote, where Kemba is playing with similar to Lowry style but without co-star and results speak for themselves. It's harder to find such comparision for DeRozan, but it wouldn't be nice either.

    I'm really glad that we have that duo leading the Raptors, just this season with Deebo yet another improvement and Lowry reduced role (which is for the good - let's hope he will be finally healthy for postseason) our 9th pick in 9th season definitely looks like top 10 player.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Quote Majesiu wrote: View Post
    This particular catch it all metric seems to produce kind of weird result: take a look at 96/97 (69-13) Bulls and try to make top 3 and then see what WINS show.
    That looks pretty much spot on to me, Jordan in his 12th year, was already in decline, while still playing at a superstar level, on a very good, deep team, with two other superstars in Rodman and Pippen and great role player in Kerr.

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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    That looks pretty much spot on to me, Jordan in his 12th year, was already in decline, while still playing at a superstar level, on a very good, deep team, with two other superstars in Rodman and Pippen and great role player in Kerr.
    A quick glance at other top teams shows me your advanced stat tells but half the story. According to it, al horford is the batman, kyrie the robin. Draymond green is higher on the value list than durant. Clint capela has 2x the win shares of chris paul.

    These advanced stats sure love the do all, savvy smart players (as do I) well not giving enough credit to the guy who EFFICIENTLY masters a classic old stat: PPG.

    I've seen your biases in seasons past on posts. And I've watched every game this year. Lowry is my favorite, but derozan has been the best and most consistent player in the 1st half, end of.
    And suddenly the man, who fancied himself a God, felt a very human chill crawl up his spine.

    #KingDethroned

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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    A quick glance at other top teams shows me your advanced stat tells but half the story. According to it, al horford is the batman, kyrie the robin. Draymond green is higher on the value list than durant. Clint capela has 2x the win shares of chris paul.

    These advanced stats sure love the do all, savvy smart players (as do I) well not giving enough credit to the guy who EFFICIENTLY masters a classic old stat: PPG.

    I've seen your biases in seasons past on posts. And I've watched every game this year. Lowry is my favorite, but derozan has been the best and most consistent player in the 1st half, end of.
    Meh, he's using WP, probably the most obviously flawed win share stat. It dramatically overvalues rebounding, hence the Pippen/Rodman thing on the Bulls, and the Capela/Horford/Green thing (although I do think Horford has been gigantic for the Celtics this year).

    WS is much simpler, and importantly doesn't rest on a flawed (IMO) valuation of rebounding. And is telling us for the first time that DeMar is the star producer on the team, even above Lowry. Lowry still wins in impact stats (BPM and RPM) but he might do that until he retires, he's an impact god.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Meh, he's using WP, probably the most obviously flawed win share stat. It dramatically overvalues rebounding, hence the Pippen/Rodman thing on the Bulls, and the Capela/Horford/Green thing (although I do think Horford has been gigantic for the Celtics this year).

    WS is much simpler, and importantly doesn't rest on a flawed (IMO) valuation of rebounding. And is telling us for the first time that DeMar is the star producer on the team, even above Lowry. Lowry still wins in impact stats (BPM and RPM) but he might do that until he retires, he's an impact god.
    Ok that makes a lot more sense. And I don't think Demar has been a TON better. I had kyle the better player thru November. DeMar passed him but it still could change as the season wears on. As majesiu said they're really a fantastic complimentary duo. But just as far as age difference and durability etc I'm calling the passing of the torch officially in this season, and the first time ever in his career demar could stake his claim as the raptors top dog
    And suddenly the man, who fancied himself a God, felt a very human chill crawl up his spine.

    #KingDethroned

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    Stats aside, the eye test also shows that DeRozan is the one carrying the team so far this season.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Stats aside, the eye test also shows that DeRozan is the one carrying the team so far this season.
    I'll nitpick the word choice. He's been the best player on a deep team. Harden and lebron and westbrook (though westbrook mostly last year) - those guys "carry" teams
    And suddenly the man, who fancied himself a God, felt a very human chill crawl up his spine.

    #KingDethroned

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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I'll nitpick the word choice. He's been the best player on a deep team. Harden and lebron and westbrook (though westbrook mostly last year) - those guys "carry" teams
    How about "doing the most heavy lifting on the team"?

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