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Why Brad Stevens is the best Coach ever.

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  • #31
    Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I like how people call it Casey's style when it's the offense that Masai wanted to play. How many times did him and Webster defend it to the press. Casey is a good soldier if Masai ever really had a problem with the offence back than he would of asked Casey to change and he would of. Just like now.

    Change of style hasn't really proved anything. Yes raptors have a top 10 offence. They do every year in the regular season. The biggest difference I've seen is that we actually have role players that don't shrink under the bright lights. Roles players that can atually make a play for themselves and others when Lowry/Deebo are getting trapped. Role players that actually not just survive but, dominate when Deebo/Lowry are not on the court.

    The only old role player that stepped in big momments was Cojo. Don't you find it interesting that the only changes made were the role players around the core. Because Masai realize that guys like Carrol and 2pat just arent cut out for the big momments. This team is better cause the have better role players.

    Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
    What? Then how come that play style was around long before masai came? Did you notice last year end presser was the first time masai looked visibly agitated and admitted he'd be stepping in on basketball strategy, something he previously hasn't done? Did you notice how he always defends his guys in the press no matter what?

    It's ok Christian Casey is not perfect
    9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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    • #32
      KeonClark wrote: View Post
      What? Then how come that play style was around long before masai came? Did you notice last year end presser was the first time masai looked visibly agitated and admitted he'd be stepping in on basketball strategy, something he previously hasn't done? Did you notice how he always defends his guys in the press no matter what?

      It's ok Christian Casey is not perfect
      Rapstors were 13th in assist per game in Casey's first year 2011-12. They are 12th this year.

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      @Chr1st1anL

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      • #33
        Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
        Rapstors were 13th in assist per game in Casey's first year 2011-12. They are 12th this year.

        Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
        Ever heard of "pace"?

        We are 16th in AST/100 this year. Raps were 30th last year - yes we were the worst in the entire league. And the year before that? Raps were 29th. Incredibly, we actually got worse in passing during Casey's tenure, if that was even possible. Until Masai stepped in and said "enough is enough", or we would have been 31st in AST/100 this year. lol.

        Even Casey has admitted that coaches aren't perfect, when the whole issue of ball movement came up around DeMarre Carroll's comments when the Nets came to Toronto this year. If Casey can admit he was wrong... why can't you?
        Last edited by golden; Wed Feb 7, 2018, 04:23 PM.

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        • #34
          Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
          Rapstors were 13th in assist per game in Casey's first year 2011-12. They are 12th this year.

          Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk
          Calderon was the starting PG then. Demar's assist per 100 possession went up after Masai arrived.
          If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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          • #35
            3inthekeon wrote: View Post
            Calderon was the starting PG then. Demar's assist per 100 possession went up after Masai arrived.
            DeMar's assist rate had to go up, because his usage skyrocketed, but the other interesting team correlation is the fact that our FTA/100 has gone down. Again, this clearly shows that Casey was most definitely prioritizing KL/DD ISOs and getting to the FT line as a core element of our offensive system to boost efficiency.

            FTA/100 rank:

            This year (13th)
            Last year (5th)
            Year before (2nd)

            The other fantastic thing is that we've increased ball movement substantially without changing our turnover rate. Raps still holding steady at 3rd/4th best in the league fewest TOV/100 for the past 3 years. Casey's biggest fear for introducing more passing into the offense turned out to be just a bogeyman.

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            • #36
              Why Brad Stevens is the best Coach ever.

              golden wrote: View Post
              DeMar's assist rate had to go up, because his usage skyrocketed, but the other interesting team correlation is the fact that our FTA/100 has gone down. Again, this clearly shows that Casey was most definitely prioritizing KL/DD ISOs and getting to the FT line as a core element of our offensive system to boost efficiency.

              FTA/100 rank:

              This year (13th)
              Last year (5th)
              Year before (2nd)

              The other fantastic thing is that we've increased ball movement substantially without changing our turnover rate. Raps still holding steady at 3rd/4th best in the league fewest TOV/100 for the past 3 years. Casey's biggest fear for introducing more passing into the offense turned out to be just a bogeyman.
              ChristianL might defend Casey too much but that's likely because people like you hate on Casey too much.

              You give Casey all the blame for the ball movement issues in the past and very little credit for the current ball movement and I hear very little about his trust in the young guys and their improvement under Casey.

              As much as you paint ChristianL as an unreasonable homer, you're on the other end of the spectrum.

              Brad Stevens gets credit for his team and Masai gets the credit for Casey's team (except when we didn't have good ball movement in past years - that was all Casey).

              Do you see how silly it appears to some people? I honestly don't know why ChristianL bothers....The biases are set in stone.


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              Last edited by special1; Wed Feb 7, 2018, 07:50 PM.

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              • #37
                special1 wrote: View Post
                ChristianL might defend Casey too much but that's likely because people like you hate on Casey too much.

                You give Casey all the blame for the ball movement issues in the past and very little credit for the current ball movement and I hear very little about his trust in the young guys and their improvement under Casey.

                As much as you paint ChristianL as an unreasonable homer, you're on the other end of the spectrum.

                Brad Stevens gets credit for his team and Masai gets the credit for Casey's team (except when we didn't have good ball movement in past years - that was all Casey).

                Do you see how silly it appears to some people? I honestly don't know why ChristianL bothers....The biases are set in stone.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                Christian was trying to argue that the only thing that has changed is that the role players are hitting their shots. He was even trying to erroneously argue that the raw per game assists meant that our ball movement has always been good. I posted some unbiased data that clearly shows that the system has changed, which is, IMO a key factor in why we’re getting so much more out of the roster. Reasonable people should be able to debate these things without it devolving into name calling.

                If Masai hadn’t intervened on the style of play, then yeah, I would definitely give all the credit to Casey. But it didn’t go down that way, so it factors into my opinion, as does the history. And those articles coming out are giving a ton of credit to Nick Nurse for the offense, so that’s another point of reference. Casey deserves lots of credit for the recent rise of this franchise, but it’s hard to give him his due on this particular point when he defended the old style of play for so long.


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                • #38
                  golden wrote: View Post
                  Christian was trying to argue that the only thing that has changed is that the role players are hitting their shots. He was even trying to erroneously argue that the raw per game assists meant that our ball movement has always been good. I posted some unbiased data that clearly shows that the system has changed, which is, IMO a key factor in why we’re getting so much more out of the roster. Reasonable people should be able to debate these things without it devolving into name calling.

                  If Masai hadn’t intervened on the style of play, then yeah, I would definitely give all the credit to Casey. But it didn’t go down that way, so it factors into my opinion, as does the history. And those articles coming out are giving a ton of credit to Nick Nurse for the offense, so that’s another point of reference. Casey deserves lots of credit for the recent rise of this franchise, but it’s hard to give him his due on this particular point when he defended the old style of play for so long.


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                  Still sounds like a bunch of Casey hate to me. You're making a bunch of assumptions based on some articles.

                  Everyone was upset about the way things went down in the playoffs.

                  I read articles that Weltman said that ISO works great for the playoffs.

                  One could argue that they made the decision to play that way as an organization, as a management team.

                  One could argue that Masai should've intervened much earlier and also argue that an injury prone Demarre Carroll signing was a mistake.

                  Masai could've asked Casey to change styles sooner and then you would give Casey more credit??

                  It makes no sense.

                  Casey's the coach. The team's win/loss record is Casey's totals to carry as his coaching record.

                  Casey deserves A TON of credit. Coaching the all-star game is a small recognition of that.

                  We've been a top 3-4 East team for what seems like forever (4-5 years)..... All with different styles and personnel.... That's pretty impressive.


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                  • #39
                    I'm not a moderator, and I don't play one on TV, but you guys are derailing this thread. It's supposed to be about how great Brad Stevens is. :-)

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                    • #40
                      special1 wrote: View Post
                      Still sounds like a bunch of Casey hate to me. You're making a bunch of assumptions based on some articles.

                      Everyone was upset about the way things went down in the playoffs.

                      I read articles that Weltman said that ISO works great for the playoffs.

                      One could argue that they made the decision to play that way as an organization, as a management team.

                      One could argue that Masai should've intervened much earlier and also argue that an injury prone Demarre Carroll signing was a mistake.

                      Masai could've asked Casey to change styles sooner and then you would give Casey more credit??

                      It makes no sense.

                      Casey's the coach. The team's win/loss record is Casey's totals to carry as his coaching record.

                      Casey deserves A TON of credit. Coaching the all-star game is a small recognition of that.

                      We've been a top 3-4 East team for what seems like forever (4-5 years)..... All with different styles and personnel.... That's pretty impressive.


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                      You just did exactly what you just accused "a hater" of doing. Gave all the credit for the W-L record to Casey and passed blame on the choice of style of play to Weltman (lol) and the rest of the organization (i.e.. Masai). Style of play is clearly on the coach. If Casey didn't agree with it, he should have pushed harder much earlier to make changes, but instead he doubled down and defended it.

                      All Weltman did was provide some analytics research on ISO effectiveness to the organization, like every other organization does to their coaching staff. There's tons of this stuff going back and forth all the time. It was Casey's call to decide if it should be implemented on the court or not. And not only did Casey implement ISO, he distorted the offense to such an absurd extreme to force that ISO style. That was 100% a coaching decision, completely independent of Weltman. The strange thing is that there was/is much more analytics data showing that the extreme ISO chosen playing style was vastly outdated.

                      And this isn't solely based on opinion or articles. It's based on data. The data shows that Casey's style had 3 core philosophies: (1) slow down the pace, (2) minimize passing to protect the ball, (3) drive into the paint to score or get to the FT line. There are articles out there with direct quotes by Casey where he says pretty much that.

                      What are we doing now: (1) pushing the ball, (2) moving the ball, (3) driving and kicking. That's a significant change from Casey's style, that's taken 4 years to get to. The thing is..... that's Nick Nurse's offense and he's been sitting right beside Casey for the last 4 years. It shouldn't have taken 4 years and an arm twist by Masai.

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                      • #41
                        Why Brad Stevens is the best Coach ever.

                        golden wrote: View Post
                        You just did exactly what you just accused "a hater" of doing. Gave all the credit for the W-L record to Casey and passed blame on the choice of style of play to Weltman (lol) and the rest of the organization (i.e.. Masai). Style of play is clearly on the coach. If Casey didn't agree with it, he should have pushed harder much earlier to make changes, but instead he doubled down and defended it.

                        All Weltman did was provide some analytics research on ISO effectiveness to the organization, like every other organization does to their coaching staff. There's tons of this stuff going back and forth all the time. It was Casey's call to decide if it should be implemented on the court or not. And not only did Casey implement ISO, he distorted the offense to such an absurd extreme to force that ISO style. That was 100% a coaching decision, completely independent of Weltman. The strange thing is that there was/is much more analytics data showing that the extreme ISO chosen playing style was vastly outdated.

                        And this isn't solely based on opinion or articles. It's based on data. The data shows that Casey's style had 3 core philosophies: (1) slow down the pace, (2) minimize passing to protect the ball, (3) drive into the paint to score or get to the FT line. There are articles out there with direct quotes by Casey where he says pretty much that.

                        What are we doing now: (1) pushing the ball, (2) moving the ball, (3) driving and kicking. That's a significant change from Casey's style, that's taken 4 years to get to. The thing is..... that's Nick Nurse's offense and he's been sitting right beside Casey for the last 4 years. It shouldn't have taken 4 years and an arm twist by Masai.
                        You're not making a lot of sense here Golden....Trying so hard to twist my argument that Casey deserves a lot of credit as the coach of this team into something that fits your narrative.

                        Did I say he deserves all the credit? Do you now say he deserves some credit?

                        Yes, Casey has presided over a successful style change. The crazy part is that you look at 50+ wins and East Finals and Semi Finals appearances in the last 2 years as some sort of failure.

                        A really high horse your on.

                        You praise Brad Stevens and shat on Casey.... No mention of any success. Not seeing much of a well balanced middle ground from you. Take that for data.


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                        • #42
                          special1 wrote: View Post
                          You're not making a lot of sense here Golden....Trying so hard to twist my argument that Casey deserves a lot of credit as the coach of this team into something that fits your narrative.

                          Did I say he deserves all the credit? Do you now say he deserves some credit?

                          Yes, Casey has presided over a successful style change. The crazy part is that you look at 50+ wins and East Finals and Semi Finals appearances in the last 2 years as some sort of failure.

                          A really high horse your on.

                          You praise Brad Stevens and shat on Casey.... No mention of any success. Not seeing much of a well balanced middle ground from you. Take that for data.


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          Ok, I see where we've gone off the rails here, spec. You must have missed my earlier comment....

                          golden wrote: View Post
                          Casey deserves lots of credit for the recent rise of this franchise, but it’s hard to give him his due on this particular point when he defended the old style of play for so long.

                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          I'm 100% behind Casey, but I still wish we had Stevens. But that's not happening, so you gotta love the one your with.

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                          • #43
                            What I need from Casey is an entire playoff run that's free of rotational/strategic choices being questioned by literally every Toronto beat writer + multiple national basketball writers. We've never seen this. If we get this, I'll be happy.
                            "Stop eating your sushi."
                            "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                            "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                            - Jack Armstrong

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                            • #44
                              Both have their strengths. Stevens is a great tactician, but Casey is great at managing player personalities and getting guys to buy in. Not every coach gets a roster full of level headed players willing to sacrifice for the greater good of the team (though this years Raptors roster is just that). Both have put together great systems for players to thrive in.

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                              • #45
                                JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                                What I need from Casey is an entire playoff run that's free of rotational/strategic choices being questioned by literally every Toronto beat writer + multiple national basketball writers. We've never seen this. If we get this, I'll be happy.
                                That's impossible lol.

                                You'll never be happy.


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